UNITS: Attack chopper and transport plane

[Kuciwalker]

ajbera, I was about to post the link myself until I saw that you had already done it. Thanks.

[BlueO]

Actually, I think a attack value of 20 and defense value of 8 would be better. Attack chopper will retreat, if it's losing, and it can only attack once. this unit should be a lightning strike type unit, to attack deep into enemy territories and pull out.

I'm treating it as a land unit because unlike the planes, its not suppose to fly very high. At least, I have never seen a attack chopper flying high as a jetfighter. And unlike the planes, it can land anywhere, so it doesn't require an airbase. Sorta like a tank can stop anywhere, and don't require a landbase.

Welp, I'm sure everyone will input their own attributes, but this is what I'll be putting in.

[Plumbean]

Plumbean

I down loaded your mod but every time I go to build the transport or chopper the game crashes what am I doing wrong
In the city screen I have the name of unit to build but no graphics its a blank unit please tell me what to do the transport picture in the file looks cool I want to use them I want them in the game for every mod

[Defkon]

I think the defense should go down. Helo's even military grade are very vunrable, and they're effectiveness in urban area's are extreemly questionable. (they're actually very vunrable to foot soldiers with portable SAM's or even RPGs.)

I'd agree that for the most part they should be treated as ground units, since in many cases attack helo's operate under the Army branch rather than airforce, so that they can be better cordinated with other ground units, and provide beter anit-tank services. But as i mentioned earlier their performance in urban situations (somolia is a good example) is abysimal.. there's just too many places for foot soldiers to hide and fire from.

[joespaniel]

Defkon - I was there when those Blackhawks got shot down.

Just to add my two cents, the Blackhawk is not armored. Gunships like the Apache and the new Commache are HEAVILY armored. A game defense rating of 8 seems reasonable to me.

Blue O - When can we expect that mod?

[GenTomGun]

Adding these Units

If i add these units using the editor, and replace the F-15 w/lets say the attach chopper,,,i will not be able to use then the f-15 anymore...correct? if this is so i want to be able to still use the f-15 so how can i add those 2 new units w/o replacing existing units? Any help would be appreciated if this can be done.......

[Nadexander]

Originally posted by joespaniel
Just to add my two cents, the Blackhawk is not armored. Gunships like the Apache and the new Commache are HEAVILY armored. A game defense rating of 8 seems reasonable to me.

Despite the fact that the apache and commanche are armored, they would still realistically not be useful at defending against a land-based assault. It seems that a fleet of attack copters would only slow down (damage) an advancing mech infantry group. Maybe something like 6 for a defence value , thus allowing them to do some damage (but unlikely to be victorius) and then run away.

[KloePoek]

Re: Adding these Units

Originally posted by GenTomGun
If i add these units using the editor, and replace the F-15 w/lets say the attach chopper,,,i will not be able to use then the f-15 anymore...correct? if this is so i want to be able to still use the f-15 so how can i add those 2 new units w/o replacing existing units? Any help would be appreciated if this can be done.......

use the civcopytool, copy the F-15, rename it to Apache or whatever, then do the same as you would do with the other procedure (in essence you are editing a copy of the f-15)

[NZrevenge]

It shouldnt be treated as an land-unit attackable by any other type of land-based combat-unit, wheter it is modern one or not. It IS an air-unit and the stats & abilities should belong to the same category as the current bombers/fighters/helicopters that are already in the game. Sure, some modern land-units can attack this unit, but its still an air-unit nevertheless.

I don't think that helicopter units are really air units as such. Sure they fly, but at such low altitudes that just about any other ground unit would be able to fire at it (that's why the US was reluctant to send choppers into Afghanistan, but felt comfortable sending bombers).

Yeah I know I'm basically just agreeing with somebody who has already posted here, but I just want to get my 2 cents in.

[yucca02]

Advice for Attack Helo

Been reading these posts on the attack helo unit. Thought the thread may be open to some suggestions from somebody with working knowledge an attack helicopter's mission and capabilities. I fly the AH-1W SuperCobra in a Marine Corps squadron, so that's the limit of my experience, but I'll offer what I can.

First, the aircraft cruises at about 140 knots fully loaded. If you're planning movement versus the tank, give it at least a 3x rate.

Second, armament obviously includes anti-tank and anti-personnel. If you're working on offensive/defensive values, it will change according to the threat. Versus tanks, a single Cobra with a standard loadout of 4 Hellfire and 4 TOW missiles can dispense with 5-6 modern tanks, given random malfunctions in weapon systems. Defensively, tanks pose next to zero threat to helicopters of any kind. They simply cannot touch us. The weapon systems we respect are Air Defense Artillery and Low-Altitude SAMs. This includes those pesky little buggers with shoulder-fired SAMs, which leads me into personnel: Versus personnel, the attack helo carries 20mm or better caliber rounds and 2.75 inch HE rockets. Depending on troop dispersion, a single Cobra could end the careers of hundreds of soldiers.

Third, yes I agree with the thread that attack helicopters fly at much lower altitudes than fixed-wing aircraft. However, that offers the advantage of surprise when approaching behind terrain (if there is a way to limit enemy sight on the Civ3 maps when behind the hill or mountain tile). It also provides the benefit of protection against tracked SAMs - simply put, they cannot pick out our heat or radar signature against the clutter of terrain that we mask in front of / behind.

Fourth, the attack helicopter is indeed capable of attacking targets on the ocean. I've done it myself when flying 100 miles out to sea and back again. We can't land out there in the water, of course, but that's what ships are for. We did a 5 month deployment on an LHA-class Navy ship and flew all our missions from her into Kuwait, coming back each afternoon to refuel and rearm.

Lastly, an air-to-air capability exists. Versus jets, the only weapon a Cobra has is the formidable Sidewinder missile. We can hit a jet with one; it's just insanely difficult when the fixed-wing aircraft is moving fast or away from us. Figure that capability in at a very reduced offensive factor when modifying the Civ3 unit. Air-to-air versus other helicopters, there is no match for the attack helo.

Hope this post helps those of you who enjoy adding authenticity to your modifications. Feel free to respond at my email address if you need any more information specifically about this unit.

[NZrevenge]

I'm sorry if I sound like a doubtful ****hole, but I am one . It seems the attack helo is the be-all end-all of modern warfare. You are obviously someone in a postition to know your stuff, but I wonder if the the attack helo is as powerful as you make out. Sure, it's fast compared to a ground unit, and can definately pack a punch, but how strong is an attack helo if it gets caught off guard?

You mentioned the helo being modified to it's situation. What if the situation was supposed to be 80 militant rebels with nothing but small arms and a few sandbags, then upon arrival at the target destination you find several platoons of heavy armours with mech inf back-up? The helo has the wrong load-out for the mission, and you're pretty screwed. Sure you can retreat, but nowhere as fast as a jet, and while the helo may be fast, it aint gonna outrun one of those 'pesky guys' with the shoulder mounted SAMs...

Tanks though, the are slightly more adaptable to the situation, as are many other ground based units. Their armour is thicker, their means of movement (rotor blades vs tank tracks) are more secure and they make less noise.

My point is, while helicopters can pack a punch, they also can be caught with their pants down far more easily, which could reflected by lower attack or defense values than the Modern Armour in CivIII

[yucca02]

NZrevenge, I am open to your argument. You bring some very salient points to the table, and they are certainly worthy of more discussion. My area of knowledge lies in the Close- and Deep-Air-Support mission rather than English composition, so the things I was attempting to say in my last post could have been misinterpreted.

To begin, I will be the first to admit that the attack helo, and specifically the AH-1W (although the Apache is not altogether different) is not a final solution to the ideal war machine. It's definitely not. It can theoretically withstand a pounding by up .50 caliber rounds straight through the transmission and rotor blades, but anything more powerful than that will take it down, assuming a direct hit. And a well-aimed Kalishnikov product can take out a pilot through the plexiglass canopies.

Offensively, not defensively, is where the attack helo's strengths are. The only defense we have is our own tactics in staying out of harm's way and attacking from a distance when the threat is high (i.e., integrated ADA). The Hellfire missiles can be sent 8 km downrange if you don't feel like rubbing elbows with your target. When the threat is low - small arms and scattered ADA not tied into a radar net - we feel better about getting up close and personal with the enemy, using rockets and guns.

To your point about getting caught without the proper loadout for the unexpected enemy: We can't necessarily carry everything that will mount on the aircraft. At a certain gross weight that varies with the altitude (worse for high altitudes), we're limited with wingstores. That's one reason why it's a challenge for those guys currently flying helos in Afghanistan. They're power-limited at those high density altitudes. However, you always take a mix of weapons for all contingencies. Remember, you're never going out single-aircraft to a fight, and the Civ 3 game recognizes this. Every unit icon actually represents more than one individual vehicle / troop. We usually fight in divisions of four, and if we're limited by weight, then two aircraft take the precision-guided-missiles for targeting armor, and the other two go heavy on the anti-personnel weapons. So you always have a mix to counter the random pop-up threat.

And no, we cannot outrun a SAM. No way. But don't forget that flares are pretty effective counter-measures for the very prevalent and inexpensive SA-7b and SA-14 shoulder-fired SAMs that every middle-east nation in the world possesses in large quantities.

To close, I accept your arguments, but pose these points as relevant to creation of a balanced Civ 3 attack helo unit:
1. Offensively, rank the attack helo unit equal to modern armor.

2. Defensively, you'll have to play around with other unit values to make things accurate. Versus the SAMs, attack helo defense ratings should be comparatively low. Versus armor, it should be high. I haven't figured out how to make this work yet. Possibly making the helo an air unit would solve that problem.

3. The attack helo unit should be given the capability of conducting 2-tile bombardment, to simulate the 8 km laser-guided missile attacks it can make.

I welcome further conversation on these points. There's always a better way to do things, and I by no means have all the answers.

[Wade]

can someone help us dummies

Im maybe not the best at this editting stuff so if someone could make a edit with these units that would be great let me know if someone can via icq 45671439

[Wade]

for us dummies

if someone could put these into a mod or easy install method the would be great cause i cant seem to get these to work thx!!!!!

[barefootbadass]

Originally posted by yucca02
1. Offensively, rank the attack helo unit equal to modern armor.

2. Defensively, you'll have to play around with other unit values to make things accurate. Versus the SAMs, attack helo defense ratings should be comparatively low. Versus armor, it should be high. I haven't figured out how to make this work yet. Possibly making the helo an air unit would solve that problem.

3. The attack helo unit should be given the capability of conducting 2-tile bombardment, to simulate the 8 km laser-guided missile attacks it can make.

I think 24 attack(like modern armor), 8 defense, mounted(so it can retreat if possible), and the turn to attack option would most closely resemble this. Of course, I don't think civ III alows for different defense vs different kinds of units, but this would work ok I think. I think bombardment would be realistic, but a bit too powerful for good balance.