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  • Some ideas to improve mods

    Hi,
    I've played Civ3 a whopping one time, but already there are some things I'd like to see changed. Since I'm too lazy to make a mod myself, I'm hoping someone else will like these ideas, and want to incorporate them.

    1. I see the need for two new strategic resources. First is Tin. Why Tin, you ask? In the same way that Saltpeter is the limiting feature in the making of gunpowder, tin was the limiting factor in the making of bronze. In history people traded far and wide to get tin - for instance mediterranean powers going thousands of miles into uncivilized lands to trade with tribal people in southern England for tin. Tin would be very common since one doesn't want to trip up civs too much early. It would be needed for some bronze age units.

    2. Second needed strategic resource: Timber. In ancient times, not all civs could build navies - only civs with access to very long and broad timber could build ships. Compare for instance Phoenicia which became a huge naval power because of their forests, and Egypt, which had to hire out mercanaries for virtually all their naval needs cos they had no forests at all. All ships up to Ironclad would need this.

    3. Luxury resources should occasionally come later with certain technologies, and should disappear over time even more than strategic resources do. Think about it. People's tastes in luxuries changed greatly over time. Silks were the end all be all luxury for a while in ancient times, but now are no big deal. Spices used to be incredibly important to keep food from rotting on long voyages, but died out in importance with refrigeration and so forth. There should be some modern luxuries in the game as the old ones die out - tobacco, opium, coffee, exotic fruits, and so forth.

    What would be the impact on gameplay? You'd have to be on your toes more to keep your civ happy. The trade situation would be more fluid.

    4. Naval units need to move faster!

    5. After playing my first game with numerous elite units involved in battles and not a single leader created, I seriously think the odds of leader creation need to be reduced (even without any wonder help) from about 1/16 to 1/12.

    6. A cool thing would be to have more wonders and small wonders, but use the government type limitation much, much more often. Just about every wonder could only be built by one or another type of government. Then you could have identical or very similar wonders for different government types. For instance, a modern happiness wonder for a communist government would be different than the one built by democracies or fascists.

    One nice thing about this is there would be less competition for the same wonder. In the game I played, there was far too much of this. All civs were close in the tech race, so when a tech with a new wonder was discovered, it would be just about the only one available, and every civ would go for it. To compensate this lack of competition, make wonders more expensive so you really need to want it to get it, or more expiration limits.

    This would make the choosing of a government type much more of an important type. It also would promote more on the fly decision making. Rather than always follow the same government path, it would be more effective to take the path less chosen. All the other civs are Republics but no one is Communist? Go Communist and get all the wonders for yourself.

    7. The improvements making naval and air units veterans should be decoupled from the Harbor and Airport improvements. These are useful enough without creating veteran status. These should be separate improvements - perhaps Naval Academy or Flight School off the top of my head.

    8. More bonus resources - six types is so weak.

    More ideas later.

  • #2
    I just came up with an idea I’m very psyched about – I hope someone will use it. Playing my first game or two, one thing I immediately noticed that bothered me: the map eventually turns into an endless grid of roads and then later railroads. I don’t like that at all.

    Here’s a solution I came up with. Divide the Worker unit into two types: Worker and Miner. A Worker could do most jobs but mining, and miners vice versa. Then make the Worker unit a “Wheeled” unit, so it can’t go on Mountains or Jungle. This way, roads and railroads on Mountains and Jungle are completely impossible, but one can still Mine mountains.

    Now jungles and mountains become serious barriers. This is a very good thing, I believe.

    Hopefully when the editing features are refined, one will be able to specify which terrain types one wants to be impassable. If this is the case, I’d make Forest also impassable to Worker units. So now there is a much stronger incentive than before to deforest. This also resolves the annoying graphical feature of roads and railroads on top on forests, instead of actually going through them.

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    • #3
      There is one problem with that idea Harlan, and I've run into a similar problem with some other unit ideas. It's very annoying, but it has to do with he AI strategy Terraform for units.

      To select terraform you must have ALL the abilitys a worker has on the unit. And I mean ALL of them. You can't even remove join city or automate, or clean pollution.

      So if you make any such adjustment to workers then I believe the AI will not use them properly. I'm not entirely sure what the AI does when no strategy is selected by a unit, so that is a possibility, but I doubt it.
      Better to be wise for a second than stupid for an entire lifetime.

      Creator of the LWC Mod for Civ3.

      Comment


      • #4
        Good point about the timber, remember that Solomon's temple was made with cedar from lebannon.

        I don't know about tin, it seems kinda like nickel and dime stuff to me.

        (there's a joke there somewhere)

        but I think in my mod I'll try something like adding timber, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea.



        Ezekiel 31:3 "Behold, the Assyrian [was] a cedar in Lebanon with
        fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs."

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        • #5
          There are a number of nice new mods for the game. But none of them seem to be tackling problems with the tech tree (that I've seen yet, anyways). Here are some suggestions for the messed up tech tree, the philosophy being lets do the absolute minimum to get rid of the worst problems:

          Ancient Age:

          Code of Laws or at least Writing should be a prereq for Monarchy.

          Literacy should be a prereq for Republic.

          Polytheism should be a prereq for Philosophy.

          Middle Ages:

          Invention should be a prereq for Education, not Theology.

          Education should be a prereq for Printing Press.

          Navigation should be a prereq for Magnetism.

          Economics should be necessary to move to next age.

          Economics should be a prereq for Democracy, not Banking.

          Industrial Age:

          Industrialization should be the prereq for Electricity, not Steam Power.

          Steel should be the prereq for Replacable Parts, not Electricity.

          Scientific Method should be a prereq for The Corporation.

          Replacable Parts should be a prereq for Electronics.

          Industrialization should be a prereq for Communism.

          Adv. Flight should be necessary before moving to next age.

          Replacable Parts should be a prereq for Combustion (Replacable Parts - Mass Production link no longer needed).

          Flight prereqs should be Radio and Mass Production. This makes the Adv. Flight prereqs Flight and Motorized Transportation.


          Modern Age I'm going to have to think about some more. Its so competely messed up and threadbare that it needs another tech or two to be made workable at all.

          Comment


          • #6
            Plutarck,
            I just looked in the editor, and I see what you mean. But if I go to the Worker unit, and unselect Mining as an option, the Terraform option becomes greyed out, yet still remains checked. So could that mean that the Terraform option is still working, even though its greyed out?

            Add yet another thing to demand for the patch!

            Comment


            • #7
              Harlan:

              As for Terraform, I don't think it does. If you select it, change it so it grays out, save, close the editor, then re-open it, you'll find that apparently it doesn't save the box when it's grayed out.

              However I wonder what would happen if it was hex-edited into using the terraform strategy? Not sure it would work, but I don't know what happens when you do that to any building like giving a small wonder a great wonder ability. The game might just ignore it or crash, or there is the extremely off chance that it would work.


              I really like your review of the tech tree though, and encourage you to continue working on it and expanding it. After a patch or two revamping the tech tree would be the obvious next step in the advancing of civ3 mods.
              Better to be wise for a second than stupid for an entire lifetime.

              Creator of the LWC Mod for Civ3.

              Comment


              • #8
                Plutarck,
                People are already looking into hex editing, and at this point its clear one can't change a great wonder to a small one and so on, even at that level. But that could be because of the structure of the BIC file, and that in future patches that structure will change. Lets hope so.

                "I really like your review of the tech tree though, and encourage you to continue working on it and expanding it. After a patch or two revamping the tech tree would be the obvious next step in the advancing of civ3 mods."

                Glad you like the ideas. They're looking for a home - maybe you'd want to incorporate some into your mod? The idea is to do the bare minimum number of changes on the tech tree, at least for starters. I know some people will completely revise the whole thing, but I'd at least for starters like to play somewhat close to Firaxis' original intention of how the game should work.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Tin and Timber - well, could be worth a try. You should, however, not be completely helpless without these resources.

                  Luxuries tech-dependent - makes sense if it is doable.

                  Faster naval units - anyone who does NOT agree? Until railroads, ships should be about as fast as mounted units on roads.

                  It is a good idea to split the civilian and military effects of harbours and airports.

                  I am working on a changed tech tree. Thanks for the ideas.
                  The difference between industrial society and information society:
                  In an industrial society you take a shower when you have come home from work.
                  In an information society you take a shower before leaving for work.

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                  • #10
                    timber sounds like a great idea! and tin is well...sounds good






                    "Friends, Romans, Countrymen lend me your ears."

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                    • #11
                      Great idea Harlan!
                      Are you lazy??? Wasn't it you who made like 200 WW2,WW1 units for us to use in CTP? ;-)

                      I also think it looks really messy with roads over mountains and jungle. If you just could build roads on flat ground it would become much better!
                      You should tell Firaxis about that.
                      --------------------------------------------
                      My units:

                      Star Wars Hoth Laser Turret

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Harlan
                        There are a number of nice new mods for the game. But none of them seem to be tackling problems with the tech tree (that I've seen yet, anyways).
                        Actually Harlan, I am currently reworking the tech tree so that it is more like it was in CIV2. I also use some of the Unique units to make some of the 'useless' tech more profitable. (currently made it to late medieval, but now it starts to get screwy since I am missing units )

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                        • #13
                          Does anyone know how to take a screenshot? I would quite like to post my 'reformed' tech tree here.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ancient Age:

                            Code of Laws or at least Writing should be a prereq for Monarchy.

                            Literacy should be a prereq for Republic.

                            Polytheism should be a prereq for Philosophy.
                            1. Writing, definitely not, I'd say... there were crude forms of monarchies (as separate from a despotism) wherein literacy was next to nil. Code of Laws? Maybe, maybe...

                            2. Yes, that I can wholeheartedly agree with. But the only concern I see is that by adding more prereqs to the gov techs you further limit the speed in which one can access them, and that can make all the difference early on.

                            3. I disagree with you here- there's no reason why someone cannot begin to logically persue a humanistic form of thought without first believing in gods.

                            Middle Ages:

                            Invention should be a prereq for Education, not Theology.

                            Education should be a prereq for Printing Press.

                            Navigation should be a prereq for Magnetism.

                            Economics should be necessary to move to next age.

                            Economics should be a prereq for Democracy, not Banking.
                            1. Definitely not- religious schools played a vital role in many civilizations whenever they reached a 'dark age' of their development. The temple-scribes of ancient Greece, the monastic schools of Christendom, and the retreats of China all played a part in handing downt the knowledge of yesteryear to their descendants.

                            2. Yes, that would make a good about of sense.

                            3. The Chinese developed magnetic loadstones without ever building a comparable ship to those featured in Navigation- they never were able to get anywhere with it though, due to an edict by the Emperor.

                            4. Any reason why? It seems to me federally backed and fully integrated economic systems didn't appear until after democracies mobilized their resources to assist in their development.

                            Industrial Age:

                            Industrialization should be the prereq for Electricity, not Steam Power.

                            Steel should be the prereq for Replacable Parts, not Electricity.

                            Scientific Method should be a prereq for The Corporation.

                            Replacable Parts should be a prereq for Electronics.

                            Industrialization should be a prereq for Communism.

                            Adv. Flight should be necessary before moving to next age.

                            Replacable Parts should be a prereq for Combustion (Replacable Parts - Mass Production link no longer needed).

                            Flight prereqs should be Radio and Mass Production. This makes the Adv. Flight prereqs Flight and Motorized Transportation.
                            1. Except that Steam Power should be a prereq for Industrialization...

                            2. Yes, I agree here.

                            3. Sounds good...

                            4. I don't see why this should be as it you say- replaceable parts mainly concerns itself with the assembly line, in my opinion, and in that electricity assisted it.

                            5. Yes.

                            6. No- I see no reason that people must know how to fly to advance to other things...

                            7. & 8. Both look good to me...

                            Does anyone know how to take a screenshot? I would quite like to post my 'reformed' tech tree here.
                            The little Print Screen button over top of the Insert? Press that and then open paint proggie, 'paste' and voilá!

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                            • #15
                              Ok, here is my tech tree for the ancient times. I pinched printing press and chemistry from the middle ages and created the two new advances Seafaring (Currency+Mapmaking) and Military Organization (Basically all the military advances combined). This allows you to craete units like Legions and War Chariots for all Civs.

                              Ideally I want a wonder for Polytheism (Pantheon) because it no longer does anything.
                              Attached Files

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