A little help in planning a huge campaign?

[AeonOfTime]

@vmxa1:

The game is at monarch level. Spain really should not be a problem, since I have more than enough infantries to hold the entire border if need be (by drawing on the defenses of each city on the continent, I have at least two infantries in each one). Anyway, by the time I have conquered them, the japanese will have eradicated the Inca - and I'd like to prevent that!

As for the cavalries, I wanted to use them as support, by attacking the units the japanese will throw at me to retake the conquered city. I have a bunch of them, so I thought to use them as cannon fodder. Or is that a total waste? Remember that the current turn is the first one in which I can build tanks - by the time I have enough of them, the Inca will be no more I fear.

I have very recently unlocked the pentagon, but I'm building that already - will take about five more turns to complete...

I had a look, there is a city on a hill that is adjacent to their capital, you are right - the defensive bonus is very interesting...

Bring a settler, land. Found cities and rush a barracks

I have set conquered cities to retain their culture, so there would hardly be any place to found any cities - unless I destroy the conquered city, was that what you had in mind?

Get a spy up and see how many units and types you face.

Ok, I now have an agent in Kyoto, here's the breakdown:

- 161 Riflemen
- 180 Cavalry
- 23 Cannons
- 97 Musketmen
- and a few misc. units

Approx. 75% of that force is massing near the Incan borders This means I'll have to make do with what I have to make a diversion as fast as possible.

I'll make a test tonight and post on the progress.

[vmxa1]

On Spain, I did not know what you had on hand to defend, but yeah you could do that. Here is my way. Only a token force stays behind or rather I take all top attackers and as many top defenders as I can load up, leaving behind a handfull.

That is not a good idea, if I have another civ still around, unless I know they are too weak to even handle that.

Note you cannot found a city on an adjacent tile to a city of theirs, so you need at least one tile spacing. You can found on their land otherwise, it is just an act of war. So CxC is allowed, CC is not. Culture will not stop you oherwise, it will only increase a flip risk. You will have massive numbers so a flip is not a concern.

The captiol is probably not the best location. I like to find a hill that restricts the easy of replacement units. IOW fewer cities near it. Better yet if some was mountains not roaded.

The best thing is to get there soon as that will draw troops back from the Inca, I have no idea why you care if they go out of the game. I would prefer it as it will slow down the AI research.

The new land will not do much for Japan, except for lux or resources and they will be hard pressed to hold them once you land.

I would clear off Spain now and that small red presence near you.
Anyway they have nothing that can take down 2 4xInf armies forted in a hill town. You will want a bunch of infantry as they will send all of the calvs as they are attackers and 3 moves.

Sometimes they will attack with rifles as well, but with one move they can be handled and are poor attackers.

Your calvs will not be fodder against other calvs in the open. I would use them as fodder in some places. They can spawn leaders.

Use your tank army to attack towns and cities. Do not over commit it. If you get another leader, then you can make more tank armies, maybe even a calv army. They are good to use to race over to cover a damaged tank army. They are great at taking down that town that the tanks cannot reach this turn or to race in to defend the captured town.

[AeonOfTime]

You can found on their land otherwise, it is just an act of war

Okay, I had completely forgotten about that. I think I have a good landing spot then, where I can found a city - it's on a hill surrounded by unroaded mountains in all directions but one. That's a good defensible position.

The best thing is to get there soon as that will draw troops back from the Inca, I have no idea why you care if they go out of the game

I'm a sentimentalist. I don't like big badasses pushing the small ones around.

I would clear off Spain now and that small red presence near you.

I'll try without going after Spain, but I'll definitely clear those red roman towns. Any ships coming that way can be cleared by the bombers stationed there.

Only a token force stays behind or rather I take all top attackers and as many top defenders as I can load up, leaving behind a handfull.

I agree - especially since the units production will be running and any threat on the main continent can be handled by what is produced there.

Your calvs will not be fodder against other calvs in the open

I guess you are suggesting hit-and-run tactics? I've been using that a lot with the cavalries, with those 3 movement it's a real pleasure

maybe even a calv army. They are good to use to race over to cover a damaged tank army. They are great at taking down that town that the tanks cannot reach this turn or to race in to defend the captured town

Right, that's a good idea - I'll go along those lines.

I think I'm set up for the fight - I'll keep you posted on the progress. Thanks again for the input!

[Mace]

I like this thread, good comments..

I have a tendency to "wait too long" and not move on a KAI before Tanks. This is a flaw in my play as the KAI "ain't gonna get no easier" once they get Bombers. I also rarely use Marines to pop the first city on a distant continent...but I'm certainly not saying it's a bad tactic; given proper shore support (Battleship or two, Bombers) 12 Marines would be able to take even a metro that was defended by Riflemen.

Sometimes if you land a big army (read = cav, tanks, etc.) next to an AI city, the AI immediately drafts and moves extra units into that city. Whereas if you use marines to swoop in, many times the AI is caught offguard and you'd only have, say 4 defenders to kill instead of 6 or 8.

I would get some of Japan's cities ASAP because once Japan develops Flight, you'll get bombed quite a bit...but if you get a nice beachead going you should be ok. Japan is large and undoubtedly has a good production capability to make lots of Bombers, very quickly.

You mentioned keeping 2 Infs in most of your towns back home...this is fine. But keep in mind, if you had taken out Spain at some point, you wouldn't have to have ANY units in your inland core...and that unit support cost could go to offensive units fighting Japan.

If I was in "all-business" mode I would have taken out Spain as soon as I could, to make my home continent all mine. For me that's the #1 security goal in Civ, and if you're playing for keeps (such as on Monarch or higher) it's awfully nice to do that, as it frees up your military to fight somewhere else, not sitting back home garissoning.
Your inland cities can be empty of military...just keep around a few units (like old cavs) and artillery to weaken and destroy any AI amphib landings.

[vmxa1]

Capturing the city/town/metro with marines is not the issue. It is what happens next. So as long as you can bring in all your units into the city that turn, it may hold.

If the city (whatever size) is not on a hill, you lost a big defensive bonus. If the civ is not a real threat, fine. Oterwise I want that bonus.

I also want to be able to cut access. That may not be so easy for a captured coastal city. If it is, then go for it.

Well the other thing is I now have x number of marines, instead of infanry or tanks. Most of the time you do not have so many transports that you can bring everything you want, so I do not want spaces to go to marines.

Fact is I will not een have the tech and probably never would have it.

[Terra Nullius]

Originally posted by vmxa1
I like to find a hill that restricts the easy of replacement units. Better yet if some was mountains not roaded.

Originally posted by AeonOfTime
I think I have a good landing spot then, where I can found a city - it's on a hill surrounded by unroaded mountains in all directions but one. That's a good defensible position.

okay, sorry to interject in your plot, but,..

i'm still having trouble with this. i used to believe a city with mountains around it should be a good defensive stronghold. but my experience has been that it makes things easier on the attackers. they can advance right up to your city walls without ever coming out into the open. ok, the mountains slow them down a bit, but trying to flush out even a riflemen advancing through mountains is something i would rather avoid.

these days, my idea of the perfect defence is a city on a hill, surrounded by flat land. ideally, my culture and roaded, else their culture and i pillage all roads.

if the approaches are limited by water, even better.

could someone please explain why mountains are supposed to be a good thing here?

Originally posted by Mace
If I was in "all-business" mode I would have taken out Spain as soon as I could

yes. isn't he a fluffy little wonder?!!

[AeonOfTime]

@mace: If I was in "all-business" mode I would have taken out Spain as soon as I could, to make my home continent all mine

I know that's the most logical course of action, but I like to play on a balanced world - If I had that entire continent, it wouldn't really be fun anymore: there would be no surprises

@lebensraum: yes. isn't he a fluffy little wonder?!!

LOL - I guess this comes from the fact that I rarely ever engage in fights unless it's absolutely necessary - if I can stay in my little corner of the world and peacefully develop my civilization I'm absolutely happy. Sometimes I have to make exceptions, like this time - so I'm not really used to running campaigns...

@mace: But keep in mind, if you had taken out Spain at some point, you wouldn't have to have ANY units in your inland core...and that unit support cost could go to offensive units fighting Japan.

I have read about that - not having any units in the inland core... since I began playing the original CIV, I have been defending my cities that way, and I would feel very uneasy (naked?) leaving some cities undefended. You have a point, however - there would be no need for those units.

@lebensraum: i used to believe a city with mountains around it should be a good defensive stronghold

Correct me if I'm wrong, vmxa1, but I think such a city is a good defensible position as you can post defensive units in those mountains, which gives you long-range sight that can keep you informed about troop movements. Morevover, as the AI knows as well as you do that getting rid of defensive units in mountains is a costly exercise, they will try to attack from a different spot.

That is not the case if your opponent has bombers and artillery however, and does not have to engage in hand-to-hand combat...

@vxma1: Well the other thing is I now have x number of marines, instead of infanry or tanks

That's exactly why I discarded the idea. In theory, marines are a good unit, but it seems in practice they hardly get used. Mace mentioned that "the AI immediately drafts and moves extra units into that city" [when you land units next to it] - this is an advantage, but if I am to choose, I prefer to have tanks instead of marines.

@mace: I would get some of Japan's cities ASAP because once Japan develops Flight, you'll get bombed quite a bit...but if you get a nice beachead going you should be ok. Japan is large and undoubtedly has a good production capability to make lots of Bombers, very quickly.

Exactly my thought. Actually I started my campaign last night - I had saved it the turn the Inca declared war on the japanese (suicidal buggers), and as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, the Japanese had moved most of their units in place on their border already. I made all necessary preparations including rushing four transports to get ready to move in.

The next turn, half of the incan empire was no more. The turn after that, they would certainly be eradicated, so I had to review my tactics again - out of curiosity, I planted a spy in the roman empire, and behold!

- 269 Infantries
- 190 Cavalry
- 140 Frigates

...!? I decided they could be just the diversion I needed until I had my strikeforce ready. A short talk with Caesar gave me the military alliance I needed (for Spices and 2000 gold, quite a bargain ).

Just to be on the safe side, I gave the Inca a small underdeveloped city at the edge of my territory to make sure they would survive, and waited for the next developments. The japanese took all remaining Incan cities but two that were hidden behind some roman cities. With that amount of infantries, the Japanese even with all their might did not succeed in even scratching the romans.

Meanwhile, I had my three armies ready (one for defense, two for offense), and a bunch of tanks so I grabbed a city of the former Incan empire (with one army, there was only one defender in there), and within two turns was able to conquer three cities without much resistance from the japanese - they are spread too thin. I'll probably end up protecting them from from being destroyed

Somehow I get the impression there is some analogy to what happened to the roman empire on earth...

I think my biggest asset on the conquered continent so far have been the 30 bombers. With the lethal land bombard, they have taken out all the resistance they have put up, as well as weakened the defenses of the cities I conquered. I'll definitely be using those more often.

[AeonOfTime]

Short follow-up: I just realized that I will be able to restore the Incan empire to its ancient glory once I have conquered that part of the japanese territory (by giving them back those cities)!

It's actually quite amazing the stuff CIV empowers you to do. Even after all those years of playing the game, it's still full of surprises

[theDragon]

Although honorable and I have done so in a few games, I have never heard of another CIVer that has restored a civilization's sovreignty as you are going to. I commend you.

[AeonOfTime]

Thanks Actually I haven't done this in a long time, as I did not really get the opportunity. I think the Inca will be rather pleased... And it's much more interesting when there are a few more civs around. I already hated the Japanese for destroying the Byzantines, the Inca too would have been too much

[Charles_Bronson]

You´re doing the right thing. You don´t have time to waste protecting those cities against the japanese, and the japaneses cities themselves probably be enough to make a domination victory for you.

You deserve a medal

Note: Bombers kick ass! They expensive, but they are the best bombardment unit!!! Only a little expensive, but the high cost is worthy.

[vmxa1]

lebensraum, I do not like to have to attack defenders on any bonus terrain. The main thing in this scenario is that they are going to attack you. The terrain bonus does them no good, when they attack.

It is really all about preventing a civ with large numbers from being able to hit you with all of them at once and hopefully giving me one more turn to get ready.

I want at least to have the barracks before they hit and maybe the wall before the bulk of the units hit.

It is hard to slow them down that much without hills/mountains. If it is just grass the lack of roads won't stop calvs from hitting you right away.


Now once I ride out the attack wave, then those bonus terrain tiles hurts me. I can live with that as I have the ability to choose what units to attack and with what forces.

I will be using armies to attack, so they can deal with the extra defense. I will use lessor units to hit wounded stuff. I may even have some arty by the time I try to break out.

Now most of my use of these tactics is on Sid and that means I will not be facing inferior units, except in a few rare cases. So if I was playing at a level and a game where I was bringing units of higher tech and facing smaller numbers, I may do it differently.

As you may know at Sid I would expect them to have many hundreds of units to send. This means a lot of turns on defense only.

[Mace]

Originally posted by AeonOfTime
Thanks Actually I haven't done this in a long time, as I did not really get the opportunity. I think the Inca will be rather pleased... And it's much more interesting when there are a few more civs around.

I liberated a civ once or twice, and re-constituted their empire somewhat. Kind of made me feel good I guess. Mostly at Regent or Monarch though. I usually can't afford to do it on Emp.

[Mace]

Originally posted by AeonOfTime I have read about that - not having any units in the inland core... since I began playing the original CIV, I have been defending my cities that way, and I would feel very uneasy (naked?) leaving some cities undefended. You have a point, however - there would be no need for those units.

There's a thread all about that here somewhere...
I like your style about wanting to keep balance, and I understand that this is pretty fun sometimes. I often have games where I do this, but on other games, I really go for broke, just to see how great I can do.

That's exactly why I discarded the idea. In theory, marines are a good unit, but it seems in practice they hardly get used. Mace mentioned that "the AI immediately drafts and moves extra units into that city" [when you land units next to it] - this is an advantage, but if I am to choose, I prefer to have tanks instead of marines.

Me too. Tanks are a better unit and most times I would rather have them in transports than marines. In my mod I have helped Marines out just a bit...to balance a little.

- 269 Infantries
- 190 Cavalry
- 140 Frigates

The Romans have all that??!?!! Nice enough for a good little diversion. Let the Romans and Japanese beat themselves up and then you can swoop in and clean up the mess...Roman land included...
I'd say you have an easy Domination Vic in the works, if you want it. And probably military vic too, if you've enabled it.

Just to be on the safe side, I gave the Inca a small underdeveloped city at the edge of my territory to make sure they would survive,

Good thinking...I'll put that one in my data banks.

Somehow I get the impression there is some analogy to what happened to the roman empire on earth...

Partly. And the Romans got soft and didn't want to fight or work, they instead hired others to fight and work for them. Kind of what is happening to 1st world countries right now...scary thought

I think my biggest asset on the conquered continent so far have been the 30 bombers. With the lethal land bombard, they have taken out all the resistance they have put up, as well as weakened the defenses of the cities I conquered. I'll definitely be using those more often.

As festus haggin once said, "Ya cain't never have too many bombers". I take it the Japanese don't have flak or fighters yet. If not, your Bombers will be devastating.

[Mace]

How is your game (the war) going now?