The Spartan Civilization

[realpolitic]

I've found the Greeks to be a rather boring civ, it's never for me, and the AI doesn't do much. I've been very impressed watching The History Channel's depiction of the Spartans.

The Spartans inflicted 70 to 1 causualities on Xerexes.

Greek strategy was able to stop (albeit through naval tactics) were able to chase Xerxes from Greece

Alexander's hoplites, with many military ideas from Sparta, conquered the Persian empire, and some of India.

Sparta, although it had a defensive philosophy for its first 200 years, could have used hoplites offensively (as Alexander' did)

Sparta's achilles heel was that it became so structured, so militarily rigorous, that it's civilization couldn't innovate.

So I propose a UU that is very powerful, but a civ that can not progress fast.


Spartan Hoplite 3/2/1 20 shields, replaces warrior

It should replace warriors instead of spearmen because the Spartans get NO TECHNOLOGY at the begining.

The Spartans also get NO SPECIAL TRAITS. The Hoplite will give them more advantage than the military trait in the begining, and the Spartan civ should weaken over time.

[joncnunn]

This also means that the first wonder of any type the Spartians build will trigure their GA. (If they don't trigure it earlier with the Spartan Hoplite)

And Spartan Hoplite in that case should upgrade to Mid. Inf and remove ability of Spartans to build warriors and Swords.

Or if you want to be really fancy, you can write down what Swordmen currently upgrade to,
and then also have Spartan Hoplite upgrade to that,
and then have Swordmen upgrade to Spartan Hoplite

[realpolitic]

My hoplites will generate a GA. Current Greek hoplites are available at the begining of the game and generate a GA. Many civs can get a UU with just 1 advance. The Spartans will grow fastest at the begining of the game, but they'll be at a disadvantage as soon as culture and corruption become issues, because they'll have no special traits, because of this, although they're a juggernaut at the begining, they might be the worst civ to play over the course of the game.

[joncnunn]

What I'm saying is that a pure builder playing the Spartans can trigure their GA easyist. (ANY wonder)

Even the English only have 4 wonders that by themselves would trigue their GA. (Colosus, Light House, Magellen's, Smiths)

[Mace]

Why not give a Spartan civ traits? It wouldnt make them too powerful, I don't think. If it were me, I'd give them a 3-attack spearman-replacement or something like that.

Hmm. An ancient greece mod sounds neat...
hoplites, achilles, ajax, the immortals, hmm. neat idea...

[longshot007]

Give them militaristic It makes sense.

[realpolitic]

Originally posted by longshot007
Give them militaristic It makes sense.

A 3-2 unit costing 20 is so much more powerful than any other UU even without a militaristic trait, adding the militaristic trait might make it too powerful. Also, historically, their rigid even hampered the development of new tactics so their troops really didn't improve with experience.

[Mace]

I agree, 3/2/1 20 shield unit is too powerful for the ancient era. If I had that, I'd dominate with an early rush pretty quickly. I'd actually be tempted to give the Spartans a Spearmen replacement that was 2/3/1 30 cost or something like that...but then that's like a Numidian Merc...

The thinking is though, that the Spartans were not necessarily offensive oriented...at least I don't think they were...they never conquered all of Greece, did they? Just Athens and Corinth a few times. But they DID *defend* that pass at Thermopylae pretty well against the Persian Immortals, didn't they?

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Mace
I agree, 3/2/1 20 shield unit is too powerful for the ancient era. If I had that, I'd dominate with an early rush pretty quickly. I'd actually be tempted to give the Spartans a Spearmen replacement that was 2/3/1 30 cost or something like that...but then that's like a Numidian Merc...

The thinking is though, that the Spartans were not necessarily offensive oriented...at least I don't think they were...they never conquered all of Greece, did they? Just Athens and Corinth a few times. But they DID *defend* that pass at Thermopylae pretty well against the Persian Immortals, didn't they?

Now I am learning and digesting

so work with me here

I agree about a unit being able to overrun if its too powerful but would there be a way to say make it harder to build with say a resource that would be hard to find or even is it possible to limit it to say a higher production value?

I guess like you couldnt build a bunch of massives warships over night so why not make this units the same?

I do like the Spartan idea though

Hope it works out

Gramps