I really hope someone can help me with this multiplayer bug

[jabarkas]

So far no one has been able to give me an answer and I have scoured all of the Civ3 sites and boards to try to figure out what's wrong.

Here's the issue: I start a MP game (hosted over a LAN w/ router, running Conquests patched to version 1.22). Two player game. Every time, the player who is not hosting cannot get luxury resources. I have tried both connecting a road to the luxury and building the city right on top of it. The luxury does not show up in the trade network and the civ does not get the happiness bonus from the luxury.

Here's the extremely strange part -- I had played quite a few MP games under this exact same setup without encountering any problems. In fact it was about an hour after finishing up a successful MP game that I first had this problem. I have tested this at least a dozen times since and the same thing happens every single time.

Since the problem first occurred I have completely reinstalled everything (not just Conquests, but Windows) on both computers. I'm talking full hard drive format first. Conquests runs fine on both computers in single player mode. And I have no problem actually connecting to the games -- I have the router in DMZ mode and the MP games actually run quite smoothly otherwise.

I have tried various configurations to see if one of them would work. I had always hosted the games via LAN in the past, but I have tried Internet -- no difference. I have tried to change some of the game settings (which civs, # of civs, # of computer players, etc) and have had the same result with each.

Any suggestions? Any clever ideas on things I should try to see if I can work around this somehow? I would greatly appreciate any help I could get.

[Terra Nullius]

heya jabs,

well, i like to think of myself as bit of a connaisseur of strange and unusual problems and i have to say ...
congratulations, my friend, that one is simply beautiful!

first thing i'd want to do is take out the router, won't change anything much, but it's one less piece in the puzzle.
second, do you have any other applications running in the background? if so, i would give them the boot.
then try a re-install, .. yes, another one.

this is really a long shot, but maybe if you have multiple optical drives, try installing from a different drive.
for that matter, have a go at installing over the network. i would try installing from the machine that will be hosting the game.

my overall impression is that you have somehow cooked up a few corrupted files. seems unlikely to be a network issue. otherwise, i can't think of anything else that might have corrupted them.

goes without saying of course, check all your drivers and get the latest updates. in fact, i'd disable any non-essential devices for the time being.

what operating sytem are you on? are you running server on any of the machines? don't know if that'd make a difference, but it's nice to know

sorry to make you wait so long for such a lame response. can't think of anything better for now.

and if all else fails ..
two parts gin, one part dry vermouth, stir gently ...

[jabarkas]

Thanks for the tips, lebensraum. I called Atari support on Friday. The guy I talked to really didn't have much idea what was going on (I'm sure they're prepared mostly to handle basic problems with a wide selection of games, not weird stuff like this). I emailed them a save and they were supposed to get back to me that day...I'm probably not going to wait to hear something back before I waste more time trying to fix this.

But I probably will try some of your suggestions -- anything that might help. The frustrating thing though is that multiplayer worked *perfectly fine* with this exact same setup before suddenly developing this problem. And like I said I wiped the hard drives on both computers I'm testing on before reinstalling everything (btw, it's XP on one computer and 98SE on the others).

I think the first thing I will do is go completely bare-bones before doing a complete uninstall and reinstall of Civ3 and Conquests. Quick question -- would you reccomend patching Civ3 before installing Conquests? I have done this before based on suggestions I have read on various message boards -- I could try installing without patching the original game just to see if that makes a difference unless that will cause me further problems.

Thanks!

[Terra Nullius]

i really don't know enough about the different patches to make a viable recommendation. if you have the patience for it, i would be inclined to try both options.

have you tried hosting the game from different machines? i'm thinking
1) host from xp machine
2) host from 98 machine
3) host from a friend's machine over the net
4) host from xp machine over the net
5) host from 98 over the net

are you able to install the same operating system on both machines? do you still get the bug if you're running all '98 or all xp systems?

i don't know that any of these would fix the problem, but it might begin to expose where the thing is hiding.

i just love the bit where it starts off working perfectly and then blows a fuse for no apparent reason. you would think at that point a re-install would have to fix it, hey?

is there anything, anything whatsoever that changed between *starting the last succesful game and meeting the beast?

[jabarkas]

There are 3 different computers that I have been testing with.

A -- my main computer (XP)
B -- my spare computer (98SE)
C -- my friend's computer (98SE)

I have tried A hosting B and C as well as C and B hosting A (I have not had an opportunity to test B and C together yet, and most of my testing since the initial problem as been between A and B since obviously that's what I have available here). I am going to try to host over the internet, hopefully tonight. At least that way I can take the router out of play and also see if B and C can work together.

I honestly cannot think of a thing that changed between the completion of our last successful game and the problems that have persisted since. I know there has to be *something* about my setup that is causing the problem because most of the people currently playing MP don't seem to run into it. I just can't think of what it might be. At first I thought it might have been the game settings (the succesfully completed game that night was small map, 4 compy civs, pangea; the one we tried to start was tiny map, 0 compy civs, archipeligo). But I've tried messing with the game settings and reproducing our successful setup without any change in the result.

I did just run another test and, while I basically got the same problem, it was slightly different this time. I am running the 98 machine on selective startup so basically nothing is loading. On the XP machine I only have Zone Alarm running. I hosted from the XP machine and, as usual, the 98 machine did not get its luxury. BUT...two turns later the luxury showed up. Now here's the really weird part -- the XP machine did not get the luxury (I clicked through 7-8 turns just to see if it would appear). Now, the machine hosting the game has always had the luxury appear in its city window immediately and the non-hosting machine has never had the luxury appear (although I usually will only give it a couple of turns to see if it shows up). I had previously done a good 15+ tests always getting the same result so while the problem persists I'm actually quite excited that I was able to produce a *slightly* different problem

Some other tests I have done that might be insightful:

1. Started a hotseat game. 2 human players, no computers. Played on hotseat until both players had built cities on top of the nearest luxuries. Both cities showed a luxury in their city window. I then saved and loaded the save in a LAN game. The players on both computers still had the luxury in the city windows.

I then tried starting a hotseat game but saving it *before* building the first cities/connecting to the luxuries (I figured this would be a perfect workaround if it succeeded). But when I loaded that save in a LAN game and went to build the first cities the non-hosting player did not get his luxury (ie, the normal result).

2. As I mentioned, Atari wanted me to send them a save of the problem (still haven't heard back from them, btw -- he said he would respond by the end of Friday). So I started a new LAN game and had the non-hosting player build on a luxury. As expected, the luxury did not appear in the city window. I saved it on the hosting players turn following the non-hosting players build. I then passed several turns to see if the luxury would appear -- no dice.

I then loaded that save in a LAN game on the computer that had been hosting but I changed the settings so that I would be playing that civ (I gave the other one to compy). When the game loaded it was still technically the first players turn -- I could examine my city and see that there was no luxury. I then ended the turn (so that it would become my turn). And the luxury was there!


Okay, so I'm not quite sure what these experiments have shown. I have some ideas -- the save files do not appear to be the problem and it's not a case of the maps not synching up correctly (one of my thoughts had previously been that the non-hosting computer saw the luxury on the map but that the hosting computer did not recognize a luxury as being in that location).

I'll try some more tests later and hopefully I'll be able to try that Internet game tonight and I'll report what I find.

[Terra Nullius]

hmm, perplexinger and perplexingerer

does anyone else out there know which file is responsible for keeping track of the lux/resources in the city screen?

it sounds to me like the map is fine, but somehow the city advisor file is getting corrupted. do strategic resources show up in the city screen?

it looks very much like there is a conflict between that file and some piece of network software.

try disabling the firewall (you might want to physically remove your connection to the net first) and see if that does anything useful. if a hotseat game runs ok, it suggests some sort of conflict on the lan.

use a cross-over cable to make a direct connection from one machine to the other. that will let you take the router /firewall out of the picture.

it's a shame atari support is so slow with getting back to you. although, i must admit, it's a complex problem and it'll probably take some serious guru level input to fix it.

why don't you try contacting zonelabs and tell them about it? sounds like it's just as much their problem as anyone's. they might even be a bit more umm .. proactive

[jabarkas]

I tried a game over the internet last week which allowed me to remove the router from the equation -- both computers were connected directly to their respective cable modems. Same problem. I tried both computers at my location with the same result. Each time we tried (3 total) we decided wait around and see when the luxuries would show up and it took around 20 or so turns. I even tried building on a luxury and roading to another and neither showed up until around 20 turns after I built the city when they both showed up simultaneously.

I also can pretty much rule Zone Alarm out. I have it installed on my computer, but it's not on my secondary computer I've been testing with and my friend doesn't have it installed on his computer either. Although I suppose Comcast might have a firewall built into either or both of our cable modems.

What is a cross-over cable? I know that I have an old serial cable that I used to use for multiplaying back in the day. Would it be possible to play Civ over that? Or, since my router does not appear to be the cause, could I play a LAN game with both computers connected to the router but the router disconnected from the Internet? My friend also suggested that maybe it's not a turn issue but a time issue (ie, the luxuries don't appear after 20 turns, they appear after 10-15 minutes). I don't know enough about the game to say whether this is even a possibility -- seems unlikely since saving and reloading the game doesn't solve the problem but I guess it can't hurt to try.

[Terra Nullius]

normal cable (typically cat5, RJ45 termination)

######_(in)_________________(out)__#######
# pc1 # . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .# router #
#####_(out)__________________(in)__#######


cross-over cable:

######_(in)_________. . . . . _________(in)__#####
# pc1 #.. . . . . . . . . . __\ __/ . . . . . . . . . . . # pc2 #
#####_(out)_______/ . . .\_________(out)__#####



ok so my ascii art ability is crap.
basically it allows you to connect two pcs directly without using a router/hub/switch. the (data_in) wire from one pc is crossed-over so that it becomes the (data-out) wire for the other machine.

pick one up for five bucks from any electrical store.

it is possible to hook up your machines using legacy ports (serial/ parallel). if you really want to give it a go, you'll need a tool like lap-link. i wouldn't bother trying because the data rates on those ports are so low, it'd be more trouble than it's worth.

yep, i'm a big fan of ripping out the umbilical thingy that connects you to the net. i don't think it'll help, but it means you can safely run about disabling firewalls and so on. heck, i'd even be paranoid enough to run a complete virus and spyware scan straight after disconnecting.

why the heck does it not show up for the first twenty turns? why ? why? why?

have you tried pulling atari's chain again yet? i really think they should at least have got back to say "we're working on it"

[jabarkas]

Well, things are starting to look bleak. It occurred to me that my friend and I run the same anti-virus program so I thought that might be a potential cause. So I uninstalled my anti-vir and both versions of Civ, re-booted, and reinstalled the game (my test computer doesn't have anti-vir software installed). Didn't make a difference.

I just got off the phone with Atari -- they did finally call me back this afternoon. They have been unable to reproduce the problem there and the .sav file I sent them worked fine for them (of course, it worked fine for me when I loaded it, too -- that's the problem with this problem). He had me uninstall, delete the game directory and Windows temp directory, and then create a new user profile and reinstall there. No diff.

He said they will try to look into it some more and get back to me if they find anything but I'm not very hopeful they'll do or find much (and understandably so -- this is a very uncommon problem on a fairly old game and if I were them I wouldn't waste manpower to fix my weird bug).

One thing I'd like to do is try it with absolutely no other programs running on the computer. I have the Windows 98 compy in selective startup mode and i'm 95% sure there is nothing else running on it when I test but I'm not familiar enough with XP to do the same -- any tips on how to get XP down to its bare minimum program level for running Civ would be appreciated. I think I've eliminated ZoneAlarm, AVG Anti-Virus, my router and my cable modem as sources of the problem but there may be something else that I'm just not thinking of which is interfering with the game somehow. What about internet settings? I'm pretty much a neophyte when it comes to network stuff but maybe there's some screwy thing having to do with packets or flow or some other jargon I don't understand.

As always, I appreciate the help -- let me know if you have any other ideas.

[Terra Nullius]

sorry, i've been kinda pre-occupied over the last few days.

hmm, how to get xp down to it's bare minimum... you'll need a soldering iron, screwdriver and a jackhammer. personally i think xp is such a bloated piece of junk, i can't see any good reason for using the thing at all. 98 and 2k actually look like good operating systems in comparison. and let's face it, it takes a lot to make them look good.
(/rant)

click start/run
type msconfig
select the startup tab
click the disable all button
click ok, and restart

i'm still very sus. about the twenty turn thing. twenty turns is such a common threshhold for events in civ. it makes me think there is some sort of trigger that is just not getting through.

i'm also not comfortable with the dmz thing you know. there's a chance that could have something to do with it. i know you've had the same result using a modem, but ....

if you use dmz you are basically setting up an extra network space that is not a part of your regular network. the dmz space is left with all ports open to the outside world - not a good thing in terms of security. in fact i really don't recommend that you use dmz at all.

you could be right about internet settings being a problem. i'm thinking maybe the dmz mode allowed things to work normally for a while. but without having selectively configured the right ports it would be possible for, ohh.. let's say a virus scan to trigger your network to run off and re-configure a few of the ports itself.

then, even when you take the router out of the picture, your settings are already in the wrong place, so the problem perpetuates itself.

give me a coupla days, i'll find out exactly what ports are needed for normal operation of civ. then try setting specifically those ports open; close all other ports; kill the dmz mode and we'll see what happens.

ps. what type of router do you have and which version of zonealarm are you running?

pps. do strategic resources show up normally or not?

[jabarkas]

The router is a D-Link DI-604. I'm using the free version of Zone Alarm.

I actually haven't checked for strategic resources (for the obvious reason -- it would take a lot longer) but I will run a test to see if they show up normally.

[Terra Nullius]

kewl

sorry, i've been really distracted over the last week or so. holidays are coming up , so i'll definitely look into it then.

[Terra Nullius]

wow. finally got time to read the manual (always a last resort)

almost there ...

i'm starting to think the whole dmz situation is kinda fishy. i know you've looked at removing the router already, but i'm still not convinced. i'll get back to you shortly with some thing more concrete.

cheers

[Terra Nullius]

ok, let's have another go at this...

Originally posted by jabarkas
I tried a game over the internet last week which allowed me to remove the router from the equation -- both computers were connected directly to their respective cable modems. Same problem.

just revising things a bit, you have tested on

a) your xp machine - running zonealarm (free version)
b) your 98 machine - nil zonealarm
c) your friend's 98 machine - nil zonealarm

when you tested over the net. from what i understand, you tested (b) hosting with (c) joining over the net.
is this true?

please let me know if this is not accurate.

I also can pretty much rule Zone Alarm out. I have it installed on my computer, but it's not on my secondary computer I've been testing with and my friend doesn't have it installed on his computer either. Although I suppose Comcast might have a firewall built into either or both of our cable modems.

this is the bit that really has me stumped. if i have got the details right there, i can't think what the problem might be.

so, let's leave that part aside for now and try to get the rest of the configuration a bit more solid.

firstly, the D-Link DI-604 allows one machine to run in dmz mode. this is normally expected to be a server. so it might behave unusually if it finds a regular pc instead. so far you haven't mentioned which machine is actually nominated as the dmz machine, so i'm guessing the router has made that decision for itself.

i'm also not sure exactly what relationship it sets up with other machines on the network. i would expect there to be some level of protection between the dmz machine and the other machines on the network. it could also make a difference to the way your dhcp behaves. i'm guessing that you are using dynamic dhcp, however the dmz machine is probably expected to have a static address. this could also make things behave a bit strangely.

further, the D-Link DI-604 has it's own firewall. by running zonealarm, you're basically sitting behind two firewalls. when you add in a dmz, there is certainly potential there for things to get screwy.

so, HERE IS MY RECOMMENDATION

1. remove or disable zonealarm
1.1 disable any other third party software (virus etc. too)
2. switch off dmz mode
3. perform an ipconfig release on (a) and (b)
4. check that both machines are set to
'obtain ip address automatically'
5. log onto your router and go to the dhcp tab
set the router to act as your dhcp server
6. reboot both machines
7. check that you have all ports open on both machines
8. take a deep breath and try setting up a game

details
re: 3. start/command prompt/ type "ipconfig release"
re: 4. my network places/ properties
local area network/ properties
highlight internet protocol (tcp/ip) [properties button]
dhcp tab
re: 5. i can't give specific instructions here, because i don't have one to test on. basically you want to tell the router to act as your dhcp server. if you can't make sense of it, go to the dhcp tab, do a print screen and post the screen-shot here. i'll work it out from there. oh, just obscure any ip addresses (eg. 192.168.250.10) before posting ... like the d says, i'm paranoid
re: 7. my network places/ properties
local area network/ properties
highlight internet protocol (tcp/ip) [properties button]
[advanced]
options tab
ip filtering/ [properties]
open all

if that doesn't work, go back to step 7.
instead of opening all ports, try specifically opening the civ required ports
under udp ports open these on both machines
Initial UDP Connection ... 6073
Subsequent UDP Inbound and Outbound ... 2302 - 2400

if you still get no joy, log onto the router go to the applications tab and open the same udp ports
note. this is for setting up a game on the lan, you will need further settings for i/net games, but let's not worry about that for now.