Cathedrals and Colloseums: Do you build them?

[gunkulator]

On Monarch and below, I used to build these but now that I play Emporer, I find I would rather trade for luxuries and use the lux slider. My cities never get past size 12 anyway and with 3 or 4 luxes plus marketplaces, I find I can keep the people happy enough without these expensive buildings.

Or am I missing something?

[UnOrthOdOx]

If I don't get Bachs I'll probably build one or the other.

If I'm religious, or I get Sistines, I'll probably build cathedrals.

As non religious I've been toying with skipping temples and just building colleseumss in the core instead, and it depends on the day whether I think that is a good idea or not, despite what these number crunching builderers will adamantly say that it is definately not.

The buildings aren't so much for keeping folks out of rioting in my experience, markets, lux and the slider are far better for that, but for waging war with a govt that causes WW and inspiring WLTKD.

[Kloreep]

If you don't bring them past size 12, you probably can get by with luxuries.

The advantage of caths and cols over the lux slider is that the money you were using straight-up for the lux slider gets a +100% bonus (or even +150% later on), if you've built the right buildings, when it's shifted to gold or science. As such, while the two do cost maintenance, the luxury slider savings can more than make up for that, leading to a net gain in commerce. (However, this does nothing to bring that shield cost down.)

Also, ever tried a religious civ with the Sistine Chapel? Far better than trading for luxuries. When you're religious, cathedrals are much easier to build and definitely worth it.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
As non religious I've been toying with skipping temples and just building cathedrals in the core instead, and it depends on the day whether I think that is a good idea or not, despite what these number crunching builderers will adamantly say that it is definately not.

Definately not a good idea, since Cathedrals require Temples.

[punkbass2000]

Which is why I've been toying with the concept of grabbing the ToA in order to be able to build cathedrals in the core before hitting Edu. I don't think it's worthwhile, generally speaking, though

Oh, and UnO might mean he sells temples after cathedrals are built (1gpt for one content face isn't always a great deal, largely depending on factors Kloreep outlined.)

[Modo44]

I usually build one or te other, depending on circumstances. I like Cathedrals more, because I'm addicted to building the Sistine Chapel. Very often it's a colosseum somewhere near the end of build queues - naturally because of imported luxuries.

One thing that can make Cathedrals and Colosseums better than luxuries, is lack of the latter. Especially on archipelago maps a single war can cut you mucho-unhappy in a turn, causing severe problems (unless you have Navigation, of course). The buildings help as a backup then, allowing to keep the lux slider relatively low.

[punkbass2000]

Why would you ever build a colloseum over a cathedral? The only reasons I can think of are tech level and shield cost.

The tech level reason is virtually non-existent in my games, though I don't know about others. Construction is generally my last AA tech and Monotheism is usually my third MA tech at worst. Unless you're beelining to Constr. (I can't see why anyone would in your typical game) or you're beelining to MT (understandable) your colosseum window is very small. You will probably pick up Mono from an AI by the time you're at Chem. anyway, especially if you want to build knights to upgrade.

The shield cost could be valid in a few very specific situations, but generally if you're building one of these you already have a large city and the worst case scenario is it will take eight extra turns. For your investment you get a "free" content citizen for as long as the improvement stays in existence, not to mention a "bonus" culture, which may or may not have any value to you. Also, you may find yourself with a total of four "free" content citizens should you acquire the SC by one means or another.

Oh, and to add to your points of why you may want a city improvement vs. a luxury is for WLT*D. A city could have a ton of luxuries and still be stuck with 10 happy citizens and one unhappy. If instead of a luxury or two you had a temple/cathedral, that could solve the problem.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Which is why I've been toying with the concept of grabbing the ToA in order to be able to build cathedrals in the core before hitting Edu. I don't think it's worthwhile, generally speaking, though.

I just did this in AU505. After Education, I had Cathedrals in most of my cities, but no Temples! Though I agree that it is not generally such a strong play, in my game I was lucky enough to get a SGL to rush the Temple of Artemis, and so in this case it seemed worthwhile.

[punkbass2000]

Yes, that's the primary case I was thinking of. Playing a high enough level where the only wonder left to rush with the SGL is the ToA, but still far enough from the juicy MA wonders (especially if you're falling behind in the tech race [not that I'm saying you were, I haven't even started AU505 and have not, as such read your DAR(s)])

[UnOrthOdOx]

Meant Colleseums, skipping both temples and caths.

That's what I get for posting at that hour of the morning

[joncnunn]

If Religious, I'll generally build Catherials much earlier than they are actually needed. (Like a whole bunch with Monotheism.)

If non-Religious, Catherdrials get built when needed to maintaign WLTPD after Temples and Market Places. The more luxaries I have access to, the longer I'll wait.

Colososseums are last, when the city even with Temples, Marketsplaces, and Catherdrials still needs Colosseums to keep a WLTPD.

On Emperor and above, it's actually much the same except that with a shortage of luxaries, Catherdrials may be needed just to keep order under Republic / Democracy, and it's much more likely that the 12th citizen would be unhappy without a Collosum.

[Remulak]

I almost never build colisseums. May build cathedrals if I don't have a lot of luxuries. Will definitely build them if get Sistine Chapel. Would rather build libraries and then universities if on builder-mode.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Yes, that's the primary case I was thinking of. Playing a high enough level where the only wonder left to rush with the SGL is the ToA, but still far enough from the juicy MA wonders (especially if you're falling behind in the tech race.

Actually, I had my pick of Ancient era Wonders...and I chose the Temple of Artemis over the Pyramids!!

[gunkulator]

Looks like the consensus is to build Cathedrals, even if not religious. I dunno, every time I think about building one I look at Banks, Universities or Knights and I think those are better choices.

In my current game, the AI beat me to Sistine Chapel while I got Leonardo's Workshop and Sun Tzu. Thing of it is, the AI built SC on a 1 city island so it isn't even worth going to war over.

stupid. stupid. stupid.

[Modo44]

Sistine Chapel works for every Cathedral in every city. It doesn't need to be on the same continent.