AI not trading logically

[Barington]

Last night; OK; early this morning! I was trading with someone for something. I think it was Japan and a tech ( I was a little sleepy ) anyway I found an amount of gold they were happy with and then for some reason (I was half asleep) I added gems. Japan went to being insulted by the offer!
I woke up at this point and removed the gems; they were happy with the deal again! Tried it a few times same result.
Has any one a logical explanation? Apologies if this is a well known bug; I have been away from Civ and Apolyton for a long while.

[Modo44]

If you broke some deals, they might not like to do those again. The simple reason is, they don't trust you to keep paying (sending Gems) for 20 turns. OTOH, a one-time cash payment is ok, because you pay the whole thing at once.

[Barington]

Right; this may have happened; not sure. I think the road to my extra gem tile may have been cut (by a volcano) earlier in the game; perhaps it was part of a trade at the time.

Still only logical by AI standards; after all the gems were being offered in addition to the gold not instead of.

[Tattila the Hun]

One other thing, sometimes I have a trade going, like 10G/T for gems. 20 turns pass, and the civ shows up to renew the deal. They are still willing to pay 10/turn. Now, I'm thinking I could get a bit more from them for it, so I hit the "proposal" bit. To my suprise, they are suddenly "insulted" by the 10G/turn deal... What gives?

[Modo44]

The AI seems more eager to continue a deal, even unfavorable, if you leave it untouched. If you want to renegotiate, be prepared that they won't give you the same deal again. They might give you a better one, of course (for example if you were selling something very cheap last time), but you never know for sure.

When considering luxuries, you probably got some new ones during the 20 turns. the AI knows the value of luxuries (combinet with Marketplaces), so the more you have, the more expensive it will become to buy some new ones. That's precisely what the AI "realized", when you wanted to renegotiate the deal, so it wanted you to pay more.

[Barinthus]

those bloody greedy AIs!

OTOH my favorite practice is whenever an AI call upon me for a trade on their world map for mine, I'd just renegiotate and see how much they are willing offer me. Sometimes I can get 20 gpt

[Modo44]

I don't know about that. It's been a looong time since I last sold my map to the AI. However, you can often snag some gold and a free "refresh" of their map, while signing a ROP.

[joncnunn]

In the luxary situation I think the AI in it's calculations assumes you have a market place in every city. So it's applying the number of cities you have and the happiness affect from market place on that luxary #s. It's doesn't concern itself with if a luxary does no further good [e.g. already having 6 luxaries with max population already in a WLTPD on all size 12 cities negoating a 7th.] Also it does not concern itself with the 2nd luxary in the same deal. So when buying luxaries, you'll save a little money by grabing them in a package and when selling you'll earn more selling them seperately.

On world map trades, the AI is known for sugesting extremely favorable to AI map deals. If their map is worth one more gold than yours is and you own a tech they don't, they will sugest map for a map + that tech.

Conversely, if their world map is worth more, they always sugest world map for a world map.

I get suspecious with AIs territory map for territory map requests, I usually renegioate them as I'm buying their world map for some gold.

[Barington]

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
One other thing, sometimes I have a trade going, like 10G/T for gems. 20 turns pass, and the civ shows up to renew the deal. They are still willing to pay 10/turn. Now, I'm thinking I could get a bit more from them for it, so I hit the "proposal" bit. To my suprise, they are suddenly "insulted" by the 10G/turn deal... What gives?

Yes this is always a good moment to pause and think; how much do I need this; is this my lucky day.
For three negotiations in my present game the Sumarians have offered me two luxuries for one; could I get more; maybe but not worth the risk.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Barinthus
those bloody greedy AIs!

OTOH my favorite practice is whenever an AI call upon me for a trade on their world map for mine, I'd just renegiotate and see how much they are willing offer me. Sometimes I can get 20 gpt

I'm a little weird about WM trades. I don't do 'em. I refuse nearly every time. Out of pure reflex, I think, because the AI loves to demand that I pay them my WM + [insert top-flight tech here] for theirs, when I already have it from 2 turns ago.

Frankly, not trading my map to the AI is, in most cases, silly. They know the map anyway and the trade would possibly net me money and help relations. It's humans you don't wanna trade maps with...

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

They know the terrain, but they do not have knowledge of habitable areas.

IOW if you can cut them of from exploring an area behind you, they will not try to sent settlers back there. If you give them your map, they will then know there is land to settle and off they will go.

They know that a resource is on a given tile back there, but not how to find a route to it.
I will trade or give my map, once there is no land available on it. I do not want to give them my new map later if I have had a war and took land and this land has some exposed tiles.

I am thinking of those few tiles on the edge that have not come under the cultural border yet. If I do give it to them a boat will show up with a settler.

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by Modo44
If you broke some deals, they might not like to do those again. The simple reason is, they don't trust you to keep paying (sending Gems) for 20 turns. OTOH, a one-time cash payment is ok, because you pay the whole thing at once.

You are right about this, but I think you fail to mention that this a bug or some type of AI programming limitation/failure.

Barington's original post said

I found an amount of gold they were happy with and then for some reason (I was half asleep) I added gems. Japan went to being insulted by the offer!

Even if the human player is totally untrustworthy, why wouldn't they accept the cash deal they like PLUS a luxury? It just doesn't make sense.

[vmxa1]

This is a known behavoir. It is likely due to a prior broken deal.

[Shogun Gunner]

Agreed its known ai behavior... my point is that it's not logical behavior. I believe that's also the point of the original post.

[Barington]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
Agreed its known ai behavior... my point is that it's not logical behavior. I believe that's also the point of the original post.