Debunking the Chieftain Research Myth

[Aeson]

Nathan,

Have you considered making use of the AI's free techs to speed things up? The AI's are so pitiful on Chieftain that tech parity is no problem.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Aeson
Nathan,

Have you considered making use of the AI's free techs to speed things up? The AI's are so pitiful on Chieftain that tech parity is no problem.

I considered it, but it wouldn't make a huge difference. After AD 1250, saving six techs at four turns each (if there would have been little enough redundancy for that to work) would still be only 24 turns, or 120 years.

[nbarclay]

Feudalism and Engineering took five turns each, but from then on, I was barely able to maintain a four-turn pace. (To do it, I ended up having to use specialists instead of the luxury slider in some of my larger cities a significant part of the time.) I did end up researching Music Theory after Education because I needed something cheap to make the financial books balance if I wanted to stay on a four-turn pace.

By AD 250, I had researched through Music Theory and half of Banking on the top of the tech tree and through Invention on the bottom. That turn, I finally got around to finishing the Pyramids and triggered my GA. With all the universities I can build in a GA, plus the courthouses I can rush in outlying areas, I'm inclined to assume that I could maintain a four-turn pace through the rest of the game. So I won't be trying to play the rest of it out.

Assuming the only remaining optional tech I would research would be Economics, I count 8.5 medieval techs left, 15 industrial techs, and 12 modern techs needed for a space launch. The Theory of Evolution would get me two full techs if I time it properly, so I'd have to research 33.5 more techs before a spaceship launch. At a four-turn pace, that would be 134 more turns.

It's 100 turns from AD 250 to AD 1250. The remaining 34 turns would be 170 years, so I'd be looking at a launch for Alpha Centauri around AD 1420 if I'm calculating correctly (and assuming I'm right that I'm in a position where maintaining a four-turn pace for the rest of the game would not be a problem).

[Kuciwalker]

Feudalism and Engineering took five turns each, but from then on, I was barely able to maintain a four-turn pace. (To do it, I ended up having to use specialists instead of the luxury slider in some of my larger cities a significant part of the time.) I did end up researching Music Theory after Education because I needed something cheap to make the financial books balance if I wanted to stay on a four-turn pace.

...

Wouldn't you have ended up researching faster overall by skipping Music Theory altogether and researching Astronomy at slower than four turns?

[joncnunn]

On large and Huge maps, yes, but on smaller maps won't take as long. And with a Tiny map it won't take long at all.

I've found my ancient era tech rate much more dependent upon map size than level.

Originally posted by vmxa1
Well actually you won't be able to research techs in 4 or 5 turns for quite some time at any level. You just do not have the production.

[joncnunn]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Feudalism and Engineering took five turns each, but from then on, I was barely able to maintain a four-turn pace. (To do it, I ended up having to use specialists instead of the luxury slider in some of my larger cities a significant part of the time.) I did end up researching Music Theory after Education because I needed something cheap to make the financial books balance if I wanted to stay on a four-turn pace.

...

Wouldn't you have ended up researching faster overall by skipping Music Theory altogether and researching Astronomy at slower than four turns?

But he's having a minor happiness problems, probably related to luxary types being spread out so much on Huge Maps and AI not having Harbors nor a road connection from their capital to your road network. Bach's should allow him to fire the specalists in favor of production.

[joncnunn]

Originally posted by nbarclay
The Theory of Evolution would get me two full techs if I time it properly, so I'd have to research 33.5 more techs before a spaceship launch. At a four-turn pace, that would be 134 more turns.

Theory of Evolution can always yield two full techs. (Atomic Theory and Electronics are the best to get this way in Conquests) Just turn reserach completely off when you discover a tech and find you can't fully research an additional one before it completes. You'll probably find something to do with the cash. Building up to the 1000 reserve in preparation for Wall Street perhaps?

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Feudalism and Engineering took five turns each, but from then on, I was barely able to maintain a four-turn pace. (To do it, I ended up having to use specialists instead of the luxury slider in some of my larger cities a significant part of the time.) I did end up researching Music Theory after Education because I needed something cheap to make the financial books balance if I wanted to stay on a four-turn pace.

By AD 250, I had researched through Music Theory and half of Banking on the top of the tech tree and through Invention on the bottom. That turn, I finally got around to finishing the Pyramids and triggered my GA. With all the universities I can build in a GA, plus the courthouses I can rush in outlying areas, I'm inclined to assume that I could maintain a four-turn pace through the rest of the game. So I won't be trying to play the rest of it out.

Assuming the only remaining optional tech I would research would be Economics, I count 8.5 medieval techs left, 15 industrial techs, and 12 modern techs needed for a space launch. The Theory of Evolution would get me two full techs if I time it properly, so I'd have to research 33.5 more techs before a spaceship launch. At a four-turn pace, that would be 134 more turns.

It's 100 turns from AD 250 to AD 1250. The remaining 34 turns would be 170 years, so I'd be looking at a launch for Alpha Centauri around AD 1420 if I'm calculating correctly (and assuming I'm right that I'm in a position where maintaining a four-turn pace for the rest of the game would not be a problem).

Not too bad Nathan, but if you really want to increase the research rate on games where the difficulty is regent or below, try the following setup:

Civ: Russia (Sci/Exp) is optimal, but any expansionists will do, America and the Inca are good second choices.
Map: Huge (the bigger, the better), 60% water. Moderate temp and wetness. Continents.
Barbs: Sedentary


With this setup I have gotten out of the Ancient age and transitioned to republic by 1650 BC. With a domination win (Spaceship would have been c. 1000 AD) at 1230 AD on Regent.

Although most of the ancient age was done by hut popping, I still researched 3-4 techs of the ancient age.

[joncnunn]

Mad bomber, Nathan specifically said he would restart if he got a scientific or agricutural civ. I'd have added expansionist to the same list myelf consider the shear number goody huts that would be poped with the only "bad" results being empty & map that tells you nothing that expansionist civs have. He actually wouldn't get any far flung settler, as soon as you have more than average number of cities, those stop appearing, but with get loads of free techs, cash, and conscript warriors.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Mad bomber, Nathan specifically said he would restart if he got a scientific or agricutural civ. I'd have added expansionist to the same list myelf consider the shear number goody huts that would be poped with the only "bad" results being empty & map that tells you nothing that expansionist civs have. He actually wouldn't get any far flung settler, as soon as you have more than average number of cities, those stop appearing, but with get loads of free techs, cash, and conscript warriors.

I must have missed that, but I disagree with the premise even so. Perhaps Nathan should have restarted due to getting an industrious civ as the choice might 'artificially' raise the research rate by having roads and mines built more quickly, or restart with a religious civ because they would miss the anarchy turns. What is left is a seafaring and militaristic civ which should probably be disqualified due to getting a start on a coastal site (oh, the commerce bonus!) and of course the added ability for sea exploration would surely scew results due to early contacts with other civ's. Not to mention that the militaristic civs would allow you to carve out a large empire far earlier than non militaristic civ's.

The basic goal of this game was to debunk the Chieftain research myth which he has done. My comments were simply an addendum to his overall findings.

[vmxa1]

I am not too sure the premise was valid in the first place. I think what was proved is that a great player on a huge map can research in the 4-6 turn range. I think we would have stipulated that.

The "myth" comes about from novice players on chief not being able to hold pace with the AI in research. People would then tell them that part of the reason is that they must do all the research on their own.

This is valid, but is not the only problem they are having. They are not able to run their empire and are not able to get decent production. They do not understand trading and end up struggling in wars (they are behind in tech, remember).


In the final analysis, those players will still be falling behind and can only deam of managing their empire like Nathan.

Now if he had posted his normal detail on each turn, they may have seen how it was done. maybe.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by vmxa1
In the final analysis, those players will still be falling behind and can only deam of managing their empire like Nathan.

Now if he had posted his normal detail on each turn, they may have seen how it was done. maybe.

Couldn't have said it better meself.

[diablovision]

All I gotta say is WOW. Granted I've only played a total of 5 games at most, but the best tech pace I had was getting steam power in 1200AD on Chieftain, and....well, you make me feel so small--what can I say.

[Solomwi]

Originally posted by vmxa1

The "myth" comes about from novice players on chief not being able to hold pace with the AI in research. People would then tell them that part of the reason is that they must do all the research on their own.

Has that really been the case? Every time I've mentioned having to do research on your own, the reason behind it is that the AI isn't keeping pace, and therefore has nothing to contribute to your own research. This is, obviously, less the case on higher levels.

[vmxa1]

Sorry I could not follow you Solomwi. It seems to be saying the samething I did, so is there a question pending?