C3C Sengoku - question

[Proserpine]

I'm playing through the Conquests at Regent level and am currently in the Japanese Scenarion, "Sengoku".

It's turn 370 (Jan. 1570 I believe). I, as Aod of the Nobunaga, have 32 of the land and 30% of the people. There are now just 4 other Daimyo left. So Victory is certain, very soon. I only just got my first army.

The question is this. In the last war, against Takeda, I used Ninjas to assinate their level 1 Shogun (the AI doesn't seem to upgrade its Shoguns). As he was in a Size 15 city with 17 other units, this seemed a little bit easy. Is that considered an acceptable way to destroy the other civs? I confess (I'm a little slow) I hadn't tried it before.

Supplementary question: presumably you can also do this without declaring war. Is that an exploit?

[Tall Stranger]

The short answer is: since you're playing a single player game, if you want to do that, go for it.

I've only played the Sengoku scenario once, and basically did the same thing. I played it until I had established a dominant position. Once the question became "when will I win?" rather than "Will I win?", I just went around with my shogun assassinating all the others. (I guess that's slightly better, since any failed attempt would have cost me the game.)

Don't know if you can do this without declaring war.

[Proserpine]

Originally posted by Tall Stranger

Don't know if you can do this without declaring war.

Given that they can attack me without declaring war, I don't see why it wouldn't work. I'll try next time. This time, I won the old-fashioned way - with much shedding of Hojo blood, enslaving their workers and capturing and occupying their towns, far more satisfying, but slower obviously.

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Err...no. That's a bit odd, but the AI can attack you without war, and the human can not. Some say it's a bug, some say it's intended.

Just another reason why Sengoku is the only 'broken' conquest (with the Yamabushi the most important one). Lots of potential, but needs editing.

[Kuciwalker]

Re: C3C Sengoku - question

Originally posted by Proserpine
I'm playing through the Conquests at Regent level and am currently in the Japanese Scenarion, "Sengoku".

It's turn 370 (Jan. 1570 I believe). I, as Aod of the Nobunaga, have 32 of the land and 30% of the people. There are now just 4 other Daimyo left. So Victory is certain, very soon. I only just got my first army.

The question is this. In the last war, against Takeda, I used Ninjas to assinate their level 1 Shogun (the AI doesn't seem to upgrade its Shoguns). As he was in a Size 15 city with 17 other units, this seemed a little bit easy. Is that considered an acceptable way to destroy the other civs? I confess (I'm a little slow) I hadn't tried it before.

Supplementary question: presumably you can also do this without declaring war. Is that an exploit?

Of course not! That's the point of a ninja!

[Proserpine]

Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski
Err...no. That's a bit odd, but the AI can attack you without war, and the human can not. Some say it's a bug, some say it's intended.

Just another reason why Sengoku is the only 'broken' conquest (with the Yamabushi the most important one). Lots of potential, but needs editing.

Can you expand on this, I'm intrigued . . .

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Sengoku is unbalanced, regardless of the level you play.

The AI Civs pillage each others into the stoneage once they have Yamabushis (the AI cannot react to a unit with effectively 6 movement). This is not a problem with the Conquistadors btw, since the AI only uses units with the defence flag for mass pillaging.

The Ninja is overpowered: Either the human has the tech lead and will simply kill the weak AI Daymos, or the AI has the tech lead and the human can not really defend, because the AI doesn't need to declare war.

As a result, this is the only conquest skipped for the 'Realms Byond' SG series at CFC.

[joncnunn]

I have some different questions about this conquest. (Bought a new machine this weekend so I can now play larger maps with lots of civs.) I'm playing the Dark Green civ that starts in the northern third in the west. I started this under 1.00 before upgrading to 1.22 the turn I switched to the Fedualism govt.

1. For some reason my capital grew past size 12 to size 13 and is still growing! It's located on a natural river with lots of food bonsus tiles. The only structures present are the equivlents of Temple, Libary, Marketplace, Baracks.

2. I built the Oracle last turn (Religous only) and am now in a Golden Age! I haven't finished the turn yet, I finished researching a tech the same turn and so it's time for another round of map trading & maybe contact selling.

3. Isn't 200 shields kind of cheap for the Great Wall? (I can currently produce it in 8 turns, and only could produce 4 Horsemen in the same peroid in the same peroid [lots of shields would be wasted producing Horses.])

4. Fedualism appears to be overbalanced in this conquest. Increased support + Trade Bonsus + workers are working 100% faster. (Later could be the tech itself.)

5. The starting locations look highly unbalanced. They've combined the best possible starting city (middle of longest river) with the furthest distance from closet oppoents for expansion and yet at the same time easy to get a lot of contacts by land expansion. (I scouted to get 8, and an additional 2 AIs scouted into me all before trading of communcation was allowed.) I discovered quite a few civs with only 3 contacts.

6. There seems to be a major display problem with the third era tech page with the patch. (Missing Techs and/or extra arrows) It looked fine under 1.00.

[Proserpine]

Originally posted by Doc Tsiolkovski
Sengoku is unbalanced, regardless of the level you play.

The AI Civs pillage each others into the stoneage once they have Yamabushis (the AI cannot react to a unit with effectively 6 movement). This is not a problem with the Conquistadors btw, since the AI only uses units with the defence flag for mass pillaging.

The Ninja is overpowered: Either the human has the tech lead and will simply kill the weak AI Daymos, or the AI has the tech lead and the human can not really defend, because the AI doesn't need to declare war.

As a result, this is the only conquest skipped for the 'Realms Byond' SG series at CFC.

So basically it's the Yamabushi/Ninja thing? Fair enough. I didn't know they skipped in the CFC SG's, that's interesting. Although long, I find this Conquest fascinating, maybe I just resonate with that era of Japanese history.

[Proserpine]

Originally posted by joncnunn


2. I built the Oracle last turn (Religous only) and am now in a Golden Age! I haven't finished the turn yet, I finished researching a tech the same turn and so it's time for another round of map trading & maybe contact selling.

4. Fedualism appears to be overbalanced in this conquest. Increased support + Trade Bonsus + workers are working 100% faster. (Later could be the tech itself.)

6. There seems to be a major display problem with the third era tech page with the patch. (Missing Techs and/or extra arrows) It looked fine under 1.00.

Jon, I can only comment on a couple of the points you raise

2 - I believe in this scenario building ANY wonder triggers GA.

4 - As you don't have a lot of Govt choices, I can like with a slightly overpowered Fuedalism.

6 - I only use 1.0 (no patches) for now, so I haven't seen this. You sure you are fully patched up?

[joncnunn]

Originally posted by Proserpine


Jon, I can only comment on a couple of the points you raise

2 - I believe in this scenario building ANY wonder triggers GA.

4 - As you don't have a lot of Govt choices, I can like with a slightly overpowered Fuedalism.

6 - I only use 1.0 (no patches) for now, so I haven't seen this. You sure you are fully patched up?

Then building the Great Wall in 8 turns as soon as the GA started was a good move just to keep someone else from having a GA even if I never use it.

I prefer win the game govts to be much later in the tech tree. I'd have downsized Fedalism to say neither a tile penalty nor a trade bonus, speed 3 workers, and marginally increased unit support and then added Monarchy adviable with Contact: Protegual with these specs.

The tech screen seems to have fixed itself.

[Cuivienen]

Originally posted by joncnunn
I have some different questions about this conquest. (Bought a new machine this weekend so I can now play larger maps with lots of civs.) I'm playing the Dark Green civ that starts in the northern third in the west. I started this under 1.00 before upgrading to 1.22 the turn I switched to the Fedualism govt.

1. For some reason my capital grew past size 12 to size 13 and is still growing! It's located on a natural river with lots of food bonsus tiles. The only structures present are the equivlents of Temple, Libary, Marketplace, Baracks.

2. I built the Oracle last turn (Religous only) and am now in a Golden Age! I haven't finished the turn yet, I finished researching a tech the same turn and so it's time for another round of map trading & maybe contact selling.

3. Isn't 200 shields kind of cheap for the Great Wall? (I can currently produce it in 8 turns, and only could produce 4 Horsemen in the same peroid in the same peroid [lots of shields would be wasted producing Horses.])

4. Fedualism appears to be overbalanced in this conquest. Increased support + Trade Bonsus + workers are working 100% faster. (Later could be the tech itself.)

5. The starting locations look highly unbalanced. They've combined the best possible starting city (middle of longest river) with the furthest distance from closet oppoents for expansion and yet at the same time easy to get a lot of contacts by land expansion. (I scouted to get 8, and an additional 2 AIs scouted into me all before trading of communcation was allowed.) I discovered quite a few civs with only 3 contacts.

6. There seems to be a major display problem with the third era tech page with the patch. (Missing Techs and/or extra arrows) It looked fine under 1.00.

1. Did you build the Kabuki Theatre? That acts as Shakespeare's Theatre, allowing the city to grow past size 12.

2. The tribes in Sengoku have no traits, so building any Wonder triggers a GA.

3. I think the idea is to make it easier for more civs to get a GA. This way, at least some Wonders fall to cascades. Besides, the Great Wall isn't that good...

4. Considering everyone switches to Feudalism ASAP (AI included), I wouldn't call it overpowered.

5. Indeed, the Takeda do have the best start location. However, the starts are meant to be historical, not balanced, so it's okay. You can dominate with any of the human-player starts.

[joncnunn]

1. Nope, didn't even have the tech for Kabuki Theatre at the time.
(Actually Kabuki Theatre had the allow size 3 cities flag off)

And a second city went above size 12 as well.

2. Hum, I guess the same would apply in the "no traights" scenerio.

3. Well, indeed without this, no one gets a GA, I checked the units and didn't find a single one with starts a GA flag on. However, one civ having a GA is much more imbalancing than none. (Even the AI will build another wonder if given a GA which would preclude others)

4. Could be my major tech lead, none of the AIs reached Feudalism on their own by the time the game ended. I granted many of them that tech in a bribe to ensure they'd vote for me the turn before completing War Concil.