Fall of Rome

[Proserpine]

I need some help with the FoR scenario. I have found it extremely difficult to win (other than with Sassanids, which is practically cheating). I'm playing Regent, unmodified/unpatched C3C. What's the optimum strategy?

When/whom to fight? Currently I avoid war until I have The Scrourge of God (usually around turn 60). I'm undecided whether war with other barbs is an advantage or a disadvantage - they seem pretty useless at conquering the Romans/Byzantines, which means they only help to increase the enemies score.

City placement - drop or move?

Which impovements - if any - to build?

How many workers?

And finally . . . Is it possible to win conquering the Romans/Byzantines. i.e. by combat?

[Proserpine]

This is roughly how the early phases go for the Anglo-Saxons:

Turn 2: Research is at 100% (-3G) 6 cities founded, last one (of the original settlers) is founded next turn. The iron 6 tiles NNE of Kiel is secured (Repton). Kiel is building a spear., all others on barracks (Lubeck, Bremen = 5 turhs to go, Hohwacht = 6, Chppenham = 8, Repton = 9, Lindsey = 10) until they can buld workers. All cities optimised for production right now. Contact with Rome established (0 gold, no trade). Roading Kiel to Bremen and Chippenham to Bremen.

Turn 6: Kiel - Bremen & Lubeck complete. Discover Celts. Kiel finishes spear, starts worker (3 turns). Bremen/Lubeck, 1 turn to complete barracks - switch to growth or build warriiors or temples next?

Turn 9: Discover Vandals. Building warriors in Lubeck, Hohwacht + spear in Bremen. Kiel completes worker, switch to settler. Get Masonry & 1 Gold from Rome, Contact with Visigoths & 5 G from Byzantium for Contact with Vandals

[Dis]

I neglected the secret projects... err I mean wonders

I got an optimum number of bases. Built a temple of barracks in each of them. By this time I could build the good military units. I then cranked them out continuously. I think took on Rome. And then east to Eastern Roman empire.

[Proserpine]

Re: Fall of Rome

This part should read:

And finally . . . Is it possible to win WITHOUT conquering the Romans/Byzantines. i.e. by combat?

[Proserpine]

Originally posted by Dissident
I neglected the secret projects... err I mean wonders

I got an optimum number of bases. Built a temple of barracks in each of them. By this time I could build the good military units. I then cranked them out continuously. I think took on Rome. And then east to Eastern Roman empire.

Ok . . . define "optimum". Define "good MU".

[MotownDennis]

I won as the Vandals on demigod. I participated along with the other barbs in taking out both Romes. Then, I slowly took out one barb rival at a time until there were only three of us left. I still only won about 3 or 4 turns before time was up!

[Proserpine]

I have been reading the Succession Game threads over at CivFanatics, and in my current shot at the Anglo-Saxons "Gesthen" has a reasonable shot at outright victory. In 516 Rome is gone, Byz is 1 city down & we have 2 armies converging on Constantinople (via the other 6 on this side of course), the only remaining challenge is to get that 8th and last Byz. city.

For those interested, checkout this link:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78857

It's demigod but the principles work.

[joncnunn]

Actually, I'd say that the playing the Sassadians is not only not cheating, but a greater challenge. (They are not in the "barbarian" tech tree and can't build all those good barb units.)

Easyist civ is probably the Huns. This is far from optimum, but you can win on Monarch level without building a single settler-type unit. Just place one of the starting ones next to where the Iron will show up and the rest in positions along rivers, especally near wheat. Don't be in a big hurry to settle all of them, it would be benifital to have one of them along the starting road network and another with furs. Now build the cheapest barb miltary unit as police & and a worker in each city in the proper order, depends upon growth, next build the second police, then a baracks, and then start building lots and lots of cheapest barb unit. Important: do not connect the Iron to the trade network until one turn before you have the tech for the warlord.

As for science, confine yourself to the barb tree for research and buy the normal ones, preferably from another barb civ who is behind in the barb techs. Reserach the one allowing Sourge of God first to cut down speed to this wonder.

When you get the tech for warlords, upgrade as many units as you can that turn and start them moving. You have all the techs you really need now [and probably a lot you don't really need that you received via selling to other barbs] so slow down research to build up cash flow for upgrades. Whenever you have a large enough stack to discourage AI attacks, send that group after West Rome even if the stack going to East rome is still in route. The third such stack should head towards Sass, and you guessed it, even if both prevous stacks are still in route. I'd recomend holding any additional warlords upgraded in reserve in preperation for attacking other barb civs in order of east to west.

When your force reaches the East Roman boders, declare war. Then attack to trigure West Rome declaring war. Now bribe barb tribes in the west to attack West Rome while bribing barb tribes in the east to attack East Rome. And bribe the Sass into attacking East rome. Don't expect help from the barb tribes with East Rome and as for the Sass expect them to lose a city or two to the Romans, but that's quite okay! Any city the Sass and barbs lose to Rome is one less city you will need to take later to instant elimate the race. Plus if Rome captured the city intact, they'll probably lose it, which also counts against the city loss limit.

Important, unless the city has a luxary, raize it to the ground! Even if it has a luxary, unless you are positive you can hold it without slowing down your offense, raize it!
We're barbs! We don't need no freaking luxaries!

If you timed it right, your third force south should be reaching the border with the Sass about the time East Rome collapeses. When East Rome does, declare war on the Sass. Left over troops from sacking West Rome may have time to join in. Reserve one military unit, preferably a newly enlisted Maurader to occuply each vacent VP location.

Sass and West Rome should collapse about the same time. When they have, you should find yourself with a major score lead, but probably not enough points to win if you just hit return. So lauch all those warlords that have been building up back home against the eastern most barb civ. When that civ collapses, send to the next one. Repeat until victory. In the mean time, there is now a lot of empty luxary sites and VP sites in lands competely safe form other players, here is where those left over starting horsemen come in handy. For fun try to occuply as many of the VP spots as you can. You may be able to reach the western most in Africa. Also now would be the time to build a couple of settlers to build some cities in the middle east to get some unique luxaries, they will need minor escorts, not from other players, but from minor barb tribes poping up.

If the score limit were higher, I might have been able to collapse all the other civs before the game ended. As it is, only the Angle Saxons, Franks, and Celts survived. The Angle Saxens had suffered 7 lost cities, the Franks 6, and the Celts 5. The Celts had three cities on the mainland.

[joncnunn]

Re: Re: Fall of Rome

In theory yes, but you have less than 100 turns to do so before the Romans would win. That's pushing it quite close.

And consider that it would most likely result in the winner being on pace to win so you'd have to elimainate that.

Originally posted by Proserpine
This part should read:

And finally . . . Is it possible to win WITHOUT conquering the Romans/Byzantines. i.e. by combat?

[joncnunn]

Toughest civ to play: Probably the Celts. Not on the main landmass so contacts will be slow. Will need help to collapse East Rome and may also need help to Collapse the Sass if the Sass is too successful against East Rome.

While after the Romans are gone they have their core cities to themselves, they still need to produce miltary units to go collapse whichever barb tribes have higher score. Unlike the other civs, they also need to build boats to carry them on.

[conmcb25]

I have won as the Franks, Germans and Visigoths, but I attacked in all cases at least Western Rome and in some cases Eastern Rome.

Building that wonder that produces WarLords really helps.

Dont spend too much time building up. I have made that mistake before and lost. Its not really a builder scenario.

Have settlers and protection available so after you defeat one of the Romes you can rapidly follow and settle those Objective Tiles.

[joncnunn]

Yes, those civs should sack West Rome first. Contract with the Sass to fight East Rome once East Rome intervenes against you. If after Rome falls, the Sass has too many points, contract with the Huns to take the Sass out, but start sacking other barbs because you really don't want to have to sack the Huns.

I also love the Sourge of God wonder.
Yup, building inferstructure is a waste of time in the conquest. Building lots of the cheap barb units and then upgrading to warlords is the way to go.

There's no need to build new cities in those Objective tiles. Just send a unit and fortify it in place and you'll get points. Much safer, because if you get kicked out of an objective that you only have a military unit, it doesn't count against you. A size 1 city geting sacked would. Only replace VP cities that have a luxary that's not already in your empire.

Originally posted by conmcb25
I have won as the Franks, Germans and Visigoths, but I attacked in all cases at least Western Rome and in some cases Eastern Rome.

Building that wonder that produces WarLords really helps.

Dont spend too much time building up. I have made that mistake before and lost. Its not really a builder scenario.

Have settlers and protection available so after you defeat one of the Romes you can rapidly follow and settle those Objective Tiles.

[Proserpine]

As an update, we completed the destruction of Byzantium. Sassania helped by destroying 1 city in Asia (I had a - slightly risky - plan in place in case they failed to help). We then turned on the Visigoths & then the Ostrogoths. We also had to slap down the Sassanids, was waiting for Celts to found 8 cities in Europe (they had 7 at game end). Destruction of the Ostrogoths completed outright victory about 2 turns from the end. Only Celts, Sassania (4 cities down), Vandals and Huns were left standing.


jon, I know what you mean about Sassania, but they also start with several cities in a reasonable state of development and a direct border with Byzantium. Sassania can quickly become a powerhouse. Once Byz. is destroyed they have uncontested access to all the VP locations outside Europe. and with a couple of galleys/dromons can easily grab those in S-E Europe.
Your point about the Huns is well made, as I see it the major problem with them though is distance from the action.

[chequita guevara]

I won as the Visigoths on Monarch. The Huns did me the favor of clobbering the Ostrogoths early in the game, so I lucked out and could expand in two directions, South and East. Built Sourge of God and a zillion cities, then a zillion warlords. I destroyed Western Rome within a handful of turns with the Franks and Saxons (the AG actually dealt the killing blow) but I snatched up five of WR's victory locations. At the same time, I was beating on Eastern Rome by myself. It took a little longer, but I destroyed them, and grabbed five of their victory locations also (one from the Sassinids.

Victory was pretty easy, no one else was close.

[joncnunn]

Well, development is largely ilrevelent for the Barbs. Probably not so for the Sassania. And without barb units, having a direct border with East Rome is initally NOT a good thing. I think the only good units that Sassania can get are in the "Rome Strikes Back" era, and since the Sassania need to reserach several techs to do so (they are well ahead of barbs but way behind Rome) ...

And the AI Huns may send a small stack of Horsemen your way as well.

The Huns distance isn't much of an issue for either humans or the AI, your troops just take several turns reaching East Rome / Sass / West Rome, so it's a sucide run, bring all you need in self substaning stacks.

The Germanic barbs will expand east so distance won't be an issue. The eastern most will be flush against your border for an easy wipe out. The next eastern most will be flush against that border, etc.

Originally posted by Proserpine

jon, I know what you mean about Sassania, but they also start with several cities in a reasonable state of development and a direct border with Byzantium. Sassania can quickly become a powerhouse. Once Byz. is destroyed they have uncontested access to all the VP locations outside Europe. and with a couple of galleys/dromons can easily grab those in S-E Europe.
Your point about the Huns is well made, as I see it the major problem with them though is distance from the action.