Submarine bug

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Of course it would be better if the sub-bug would be fixed. But it is not fixed, and we should live by it.
I play without subs, and the game is still very entertaining.

We can morn about the sub-bug forever, and use them forever and be frustrated with that forever. What how does that serve us?

It doesn't serve is, thus I suggest: don't use subs, and I promise you that the game still will be better then all other games I've ever bought (or pirated.)

so do you also reccommend that we just not play the middle ages scenario as well?

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by Drachen

but IIRC the developers have said that the bug can’t repaired without a significant and unacceptably costly revision of the underlying code. If that’s not true then it makes no sense not to spend a few programmer hours to fix the problem and that leads me to believe that they really can’t afford to fix it. If their claim is true then why shouldn’t we just be patient while the Civ IV code is being written and make it clear that we expect the new code to take care of basic issues such as these and vote with our wallets when Civ IV is released?

Well Drachen,

I don't disagree with the logic of your post. However, as usual, the consumer gets screwed. It's too costly in R&D money to fix it and it's too costly in gameplay to NOT fix it. The only solution is not too use the unit in question. That's a sorry conclusion.

Let's be honest, almost all of us are going to buy Civ IV (or cIV ) when it comes out. We will find ourselves in the same situation about some future issue. There's no "voting with our checkbook" as we are a captive consumer group - by our own choosing!

This is an issue of quality control and following SEI CMM software development processes. Its not just Atari/Firaxis, but all software companies. The pressure to shorten software developmental cycles and reduce budgets -- all for the bottom line -- is leading to products which are in a constant state of flux. When software is in flux, it's difficult to make changes without having negative cascading effects that are uncovered by THE USER, not the QA guy at the company.

We are forever in beta testing -- perhaps call it gamma testing since it's a bit better than beta testing.

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Of course it would be better if the sub-bug would be fixed. But it is not fixed, and we should live by it.
I play without subs, and the game is still very entertaining.

Agreed. C3C is still a great game.

We can morn about the sub-bug forever, and use them forever and be frustrated with that forever. What how does that serve us?

Consumers can influence corporate behavior, but it's not easy and it takes time.

I, for one, am hoping that the Civ 4 development team is reading this so they can see the discontent with features that don't work properly. Perhaps they will take a bit more time to work on the game before release. I know I'm not the only one who thinks that there have been too many patches released - and still significant problems remain.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

What more evidence do you need?

Hey Sir Ralph:

I play C3C, enjoy it, and just don’t seem to have any problems with bugs other than being a bit more careful if I do build a sub. I know, however, that you have been condemning the expansion for some time. I find your stated argument to be a bit like a list of charges read at a hearing with the expectation that the charges will be expanded upon as the hearing proceeds; an outline of a position in other words. I admit that I haven’t been following the arguments very closely and would appreciate it if you would direct me to some links where the arguments have been fleshed out so that I may acquaint myself with the details of the debate.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner


Well Drachen,

I don't disagree with the logic of your post. However, as usual, the consumer gets screwed. It's too costly in R&D money to fix it and it's too costly in gameplay to NOT fix it. The only solution is not too use the unit in question. That's a sorry conclusion.

Let's be honest, almost all of us are going to buy Civ IV (or cIV ) when it comes out. We will find ourselves in the same situation about some future issue. There's no "voting with our checkbook" as we are a captive consumer group - by our own choosing!

This is an issue of quality control and following SEI CMM software development processes. Its not just Atari/Firaxis, but all software companies. The pressure to shorten software developmental cycles and reduce budgets -- all for the bottom line -- is leading to products which are in a constant state of flux. When software is in flux, it's difficult to make changes without having negative cascading effects that are uncovered by THE USER, not the QA guy at the company.

We are forever in beta testing -- perhaps call it gamma testing since it's a bit better than beta testing.

Hey Shogun Gunner:

I may just have to adopt cIV as my new Civ IV abbreviation. Thanks.

I think you’re probably right that we’re a bit of a captive audience, most of us will buy cIV if it’s even halfway decent, and that does poke a pretty big hole in the “vote with your wallet” argument as far as current fans are concerned.

I guess I’m still wondering about the greed vs. need part of the debate. Since we love the game and want to see it evolve then it doesn’t do us much good for the developers to bankrupt themselves fixing annoying bugs if they could keep afloat by preparing new editions leading to a long term path of a steadily improving Civ franchise. I just don’t know what the current state of the company is and whether or not they could afford to fix the bugs, although I do remember a lot of talk of bankruptcy being distinctly possible around the time of the PTW release.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Drachen
Hey Sir Ralph:

I play C3C, enjoy it, and just don’t seem to have any problems with bugs other than being a bit more careful if I do build a sub. I know, however, that you have been condemning the expansion for some time. I find your stated argument to be a bit like a list of charges read at a hearing with the expectation that the charges will be expanded upon as the hearing proceeds; an outline of a position in other words. I admit that I haven’t been following the arguments very closely and would appreciate it if you would direct me to some links where the arguments have been fleshed out so that I may acquaint myself with the details of the debate.

Subs are only a poster child. The list of Conquests bugs is long. At risk to sound like a broken record, take armies (AI doesn't build them and so their improved stats are wasted unless the human builds them anyway = cheats), barbarians (who were a nuisance in PtW and a pushover in Conquests), AI city placement and AI terrain improvement as example. I'm sure you'll find much more when you browse the forums. I'm really tired to discuss this matter.

Once and forever: Who wants to play, should do it. I don't want to spoil anybody's fun. If somebody is content with mediocricy, more power to him. But nobody will change my mind. I'd rather see Civ4 delayed five years, if I had a decent game to play meanwhile.

Ah well, I have one, but it's not from Firaxis. Neither from Activision.

[Shogun Gunner]

Yes, Sir Ralph is right. Subs are just one problem. I would have done without extra tribes made available in C3C to have working subs.

As you say Drachen, we don't know how much time, effort and money it would take to fix these problems -- apparently it's too much. And yes, I do remember talk about the financial viability of Firaxis being an issue a year or two ago.

Well, I do try to keep things in perspective. Remember how killing one unit in Civ 2 would destroy the whole stack? In Civ1, there were even worse bugs (far too long for me to remember specifics). Over time the franchise is improving. Let's hope cIV is a revolutionary step forward like Civ2 was from Civ1.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
Yes, Sir Ralph is right. Subs are just one problem. I would have done without extra tribes made available in C3C to have working subs.

As you say Drachen, we don't know how much time, effort and money it would take to fix these problems -- apparently it's too much. And yes, I do remember talk about the financial viability of Firaxis being an issue a year or two ago.

Well, I do try to keep things in perspective. Remember how killing one unit in Civ 2 would destroy the whole stack? In Civ1, there were even worse bugs (far too long for me to remember specifics). Over time the franchise is improving. Let's hope cIV is a revolutionary step forward like Civ2 was from Civ1.

Ahhh Shogun:

You’ve an advantage on me my friend as I’ve only been on board since Civ III. But, I’m always open to history and you’ve got the Mike…

[Drachen]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

If somebody is content with mediocricy, more power to him. But nobody will change my mind.

Hey Sir Ralph:

I'm afraid I'm not persuaded but thanks for taking the time to flesh out your argument a bit.

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

I'd rather see Civ4 delayed five years, if I had a decent game to play meanwhile.
Ah well, I have one, but it's not from Firaxis. Neither from Activision.

OK...I'll bite. What is it?

[asleepathewheel]

I'm thinking its MoO3.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
I'm thinking its MoO3.

I would have thought Total War if he hadn't nixed Activision. We'll see.

[Jaybe]

... a decent game to play meanwhile.

If it's a TBS, I also would be interested! Rise of Nations got stale quickly for me.

With C3C, I make many modifications to get around most of my perceived problems with the game (sub bug not included ). No artillery units, higher infantry attack strengths, no building of armies (produced every x turns instead), too many others.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Jaybe

... a decent game to play meanwhile.

If it's a TBS, I also would be interested!

Unfortunately, it is not. Both strategy and role playing games are my favorites, and the games I play at the moment are from the other kind.

About RoN: I really thank BHG for releasing a Demo version. It prevented me from buying yet one more game I'm not playing.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Drachen
I'm afraid I'm not persuaded but thanks for taking the time to flesh out your argument a bit.

As I said, I'm not interested to persuade anyone. If you like the game, more power to you. All I ask you is the same favor, not to question my opinion, because you won't change my mind either.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

All I ask you is the same favor, not to question my opinion, because you won't change my mind either.

Sounds fair to me Sir Ralph.

I wish you great success with the games you enjoy.

Cheers