Persistent bug.

[Kramsib]

I cannot understand why I have to be blamed for something that I didn't do.

And I cannot understand the exploits too, if I sell sources in 20 turns in exchange of 20 gold per turn and the other Civ is smashed, I loose the money too.

[Switch]

THe exploit was when the player would trade, say, 5 GPT, and in exchange would receive 100 gold, and five turns later the other civ is destroyed. You received 100 gold, while the other civ only received 25 out of 100 because you weren't able to pay all of the turns. Hence, you would get a reputation hit.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Kramsib
I cannot understand why I have to be blamed for something that I didn't do.

And I cannot understand the exploits too, if I sell sources in 20 turns in exchange of 20 gold per turn and the other Civ is smashed, I loose the money too.

Not hard to understand. You have failed to deliver and they are mad, just like any child or gangster. They do not want to understand why you failed, only that you did. The routes were cut off, too bad, its your defaulting.

The gpt was required to prevent abuse, but makes sense anyway. They cannot pay, so where would the money come from?

You want to be more circumspect about making deals with civs that are not long for the world.

[Kramsib]

You can say whatever you want, but I still think that it is unfair and it has to be changed.

As far as you say about being more circumspect, that is very difficult becouse sometimes civ are very surprising, in my last game, Arabians (the second Civ in power) killed Mongols (I have trade with them, and they were quite strong) in only a few turns, there was nothing I could do, nor I couldn't predict such a result.

I agree having a reputation hit if destroying a Civ, I cut trade, but not becouse another civ cuts my trade.

And I am not sure that receiving 100 gold in exchange a frustated 5 gold per turn is a real exploit.

1º. A small civ who is near to its end should be intelligent enough to manage their sources correctly. I doubt such a civ should lend money. There is something to do with AI code.

2º. The same happens in real life, if your debtor dies and nobody receives the rights, you debt is over and you are free. It is not an exploit, it is real life.

[MrWhereItsAt]

/me shrugs

Creditors end up losing out all the time in the real world - companies go bankrupt... Even countries do. It's the risk you take.

[Cerbykins]

Slight difference between a rep hit and being out of pocket...!!!

[Aqualung71]

The current system does not differentiate who is to blame for the severed trade link. It's perfectly reasonable for you to take a rep hit if for example, you are at war and your enemy cuts your trade route or pillages a traded resource - one of the tactics of war. Solution - it is within your control, so prevent it. On the other hand, if your trading partner has his trade route severed or is annihilated, there is no reason you should take a rep hit since realistically there is little you can do to prevent it and it's not your fault.

I wouldn't think that would be so difficult to code, would it? (spoken like a true ignoramus about all things technical).

[Kramsib]

Originally posted by Aqualung71
The current system does not differentiate who is to blame for the severed trade link. It's perfectly reasonable for you to take a rep hit if for example, you are at war and your enemy cuts your trade route or pillages a traded resource - one of the tactics of war. Solution - it is within your control, so prevent it. On the other hand, if your trading partner has his trade route severed or is annihilated, there is no reason you should take a rep hit since realistically there is little you can do to prevent it and it's not your fault.

I totally agree with you

[Arrian]

Currently, the only way around this is to send troops over and physically block the war that is threatening to destroy your trading partner.

I've done it. I've also failed by being just a couple of turns too late.

...

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think the rep hit might be minor for straight per turn for per turn deals, such as a luxury for gpt.

Anyway, it would be nice if the game could either assign blame to the civ whose trade connection was cut, or assign no blame at all. It would also be nice to have the deal remain in effect, such that if the civ that loses the trade connection regains it in a turn or two, the deal is reinstated and runs to completion.

-Arrian

[Cerbykins]

The other thing that gets at me is, the rep hit is -PERMANENT-.
Something that happened -3000 years ago-, was NOT my fault, and was minor - maybe only the loss of a single gpt, for the last 5 turns - should NOT hamper my trades for all time.
All we ask, is for this system not to be so ruthlessly draconian

[Aqualung71]

I didn't think the rep hit was permanent, but it certainly takes a long time to heal. And if the hit is well into the game, as it usually is, then you'd be lucky to ever get your reputation back within any useful timeframe.

[vee4473]

Originally posted by Kramsib
You can say whatever you want, but I still think that it is unfair and it has to be changed.

As far as you say about being more circumspect, that is very difficult becouse sometimes civ are very surprising, in my last game, Arabians (the second Civ in power) killed Mongols (I have trade with them, and they were quite strong) in only a few turns, there was nothing I could do, nor I couldn't predict such a result.

I agree having a reputation hit if destroying a Civ, I cut trade, but not becouse another civ cuts my trade.

And I am not sure that receiving 100 gold in exchange a frustated 5 gold per turn is a real exploit.

1º. A small civ who is near to its end should be intelligent enough to manage their sources correctly. I doubt such a civ should lend money. There is something to do with AI code.

2º. The same happens in real life, if your debtor dies and nobody receives the rights, you debt is over and you are free. It is not an exploit, it is real life.

You are correct. This is wrong.

If they want to prevent some sort of Nostradamus like exploit (somehow knowing that a civ is about to be crushed), then make the AI not make such trades when it is about to be smashed.

Unless the civ has 1 or 2 cities left and is so weak that every turn he loses a city, you have NO way of knowing that the deal wont last 20 turns (especially when ai civs declare war and peace against each other sometimes on and off on and off)...

Defending this rule by saying it prevents an exploit is very strange I think, given that the "exlpoit" itself requires some level of prophetic gifts so to speak.

[Tesuji]

The rep hit seems to last forever. In a game I just played (Emperor level) I wanted to assure a particular AI support to prevent diplomatic defeat. Although I was on good terms (polite) with that civ and in a mutual protection pact, it wouldn't accept anything from me on a per-turn basis. Its argument was along the lines of "We remember what you did to the Americans", which was a long, long time ago. Like 50 turns or more and I didn't even remember breaking any deal. Unless accepting the "I urge you to remove your troops" request and then attacking anyway counts. In that case it would act as a unilateral ROP without the movement bonus.

The funny thing was that the friendly AI wouldn't even accept free gold per turn as a gift!!!! Fortunately I was in time to raze the city with the UN in it. When or how often are these elections anyway? How can you be assured of an AIs vote?

Other questions: does it count against your reputation when you accept a peace deal when still in alliance against it with another civ? Is it bad for your reputation to try to extort stuff from the AI? (They do it all the time...)

I know this is an old thread, but I hope some can comment on questions of a relatively new player.

[joncnunn]

Rep hits aren't permenant. It only lasts until the end of that game. The AI won't remember this when you start you next game like a human would.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
I didn't think the rep hit was permanent, but it certainly takes a long time to heal. And if the hit is well into the game, as it usually is, then you'd be lucky to ever get your reputation back within any useful timeframe.

[Xorbon]

Originally posted by bongo
Examples:
Be careful with early naval trade. As the tradelanes only can follow the coast, one barb galley is enough to interrupt it. After astronomy life becomes easier, but cultural borders of enemies will still block trade.

Really!? That explains a lot! Barbarians breaking trade routes just by being there! I guess I won't be doing any more overseas trade in my games until astronomy from now on.

I really hope they overhaul the whole trading system in Civ 4. The way trade deals can be cancelled when it's not your fault and without your knowledge is very annoying.

Originally posted by joncnunn
Rep hits aren't permenant. It only lasts until the end of that game. The AI won't remember this when you start you next game like a human would.

Smart ass.

Don't give the designers any strange ideas.