On the Utility and Use of Paratroopers

[Last Conformist]

With those stats, dare I assume you use them for normal infantry tasks too?

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
With those stats, dare I assume you use them for normal infantry tasks too?

If they are needed, but I tend to keep them back to use them for special tasks (resource denial is my favorite use) and emergency situations. They are also useful to protect key terrain to approach routes of newly formed beachheads, if an airfield is in range.

My main defensive unit remains the Infantry and Mech Infantry. However I will build about 30-50 paratroopers and about 25-30 marines in addition to my 250-400 Infantry and Mech Infantry. I also build about 100 or so Guerilla and Tow Infantry.

Because the Para's are more expensive than a typical infantry unit (90 and 120 shields respectively), they are used only in critical area's and for shorter durations than other infantry units. They are rarely, if ever, used for garrison or military police duties.

[Arnelos]

Oh how I wish you could drop and chop with modern paratroopers as effectively as you can in SMAC/SMAX... :sigh:

But that's ok... that's almost a game-breaking tactic anyhow.

[Goethe80]

Originally posted by Solomwi


To threadjack my own thread for a moment, that may be because you're overlooking the best possible use of marines. Make armies out of them. With the changes to armies, I won't hesitate to throw my 4xMarine against an MI fortified in a metro on a hill.

Heh, as usual this thread is slightly running off-topic.
Anyway, on the topic of marine armies, I do use them, as the fully developed 4x marine army is a very scary 36 attack unit (i think, 25% bonus to attack with size 4 army and military acad.?). My only complaint against that is that it takes up alot of space in the transport with only 2 attacks. So while that's not a problem in games on large maps, where the overall size of military forces are on a much larger scale, it does pose some problems in more limited attacks.

Moving further off-topic(!), armies are seriously overpowered in SP since the AI doesn't really know how to use them or how to deal with them. A single calvary army will tear an AI apart, not to mention multiple armies.

[Solomwi]

Build more transports.

Really, you only need two or three per invasion, and the increased chance of victory with the army over a single marine unit makes it worthwhile, IMO. I'll sometimes use two transports, with an infantry filling out one and a single marine in the other, in case I think there may be a spearman to clean up or leader fish on.

On the army/MA bonus... if they're 25% each, wouldn't that make a 4xMarine an 18 attack unit? 4*12*1.5 = 72, then 72 spread over 4 units gives 18. That's closer to what it "feels" like than 36. Or do the bonus A/D points not get spread over the units? If not, there's an easy fix (not that it will be implemented this late in the game's development) to nerf armies, yet keep them powerful enough to build. Of course, even without the bonus, they beat the original armies... stick 4 MA in one and lose blitz ability.

[Jaybe]

On the army/MA bonus... if they're 25% each, ...

That 25% bonus counts EACH of your units, and is applied to EACH combat, so an army with 4 identical units has its strength doubled with the Mil Academy. e.g., (12 attack * 0.25 bonus) * 4 marines = 12 attack BONUS

[Solomwi]

Originally posted by Jaybe

On the army/MA bonus... if they're 25% each, ...

That 25% bonus counts EACH of your units, and is applied to EACH combat, so an army with 4 identical units has its strength doubled with the Mil Academy. e.g., (12 attack * 0.25 bonus) * 4 marines = 12 attack BONUS

That's how I at one point thought it worked. So, to get this straight, it's a total 25% bonus with an army and MA, calculated off total attack value, but applied in whole to each individual. Effectively, as you say, with the full bonus implemented, the attack value is doubled. Presumably this applies to defense value as well?

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Solomwi

Presumably this applies to defense value as well?

Yes

[Catt]

Amphib attacks have a 25% bonus in C3C - since we're speaking about marines a bit instead of paratroopers. Don't know when the amphib bonus is applied (before or after the ary bonus) but do know that bererk armies are monsters.

Catt

[Solomwi]

Sigh... that's one thing I didn't get the chance to try in my now practically over Viking game. Guess I'll have to play them again and try to warmonger a bit earlier.

I thought the amphibious bonus was going to be ignoring defense bonuses (but I trust you, Catt ). I would presume that the amphib bonus applies after the army bonus, since the army bonus is inherent in the unit, and the amphib bonus is situation-specific, only coming into play upon amphib attack, but obviously this could be gotten around in the programming.

[Goethe80]

hmm... i wonder how i managed to get 36.
well.. i'm a law student, so i'm allowed to fail maths. anyway, 12*4*0.25 = 12, so the attack for a fully developed marine army should be 24. I didn't know about the amphib bonus (i thought it just ignored walls/civil def.), but that probably explains why my 3unit non-MA berzerk armies happily take out 2 vet riflemen in size 7 cities

Strangely enough, I'm quite happy to use a berzerk army over my reservations over a marine army due to size. probably because what i normally use is a berzerk army together with 4 berzerks for a middle-age amphib assault, and that fits quite nicely into 2 galleons (a little more complicated with caravels, but then again, with caravels, the defending town probably doesn't have a full complement of musketmen yet)

A final note on amphib armies. One reason we've not been mentioning is that they have considerably more hitpoints than typical units. So back to the 24attack(since we're unsure about the amphib attack bonus) marine army, another reason why it can take out a MI on a hill metro is because it gets so many shots at taking out that MI.

Oh, and a question.
Have any of you had a defensive bombard activate against an amphib assault? I can't really seem to remember. (I'll fire up one of my stalemated viking games to find out - I have more land/cities, KAI is the mongols with 5-6 tech advantage and have replaceable parts... so I'm not sure what's next)

[Solomwi]

Subject line edited to better reflect the thread, because even though it's wandered, I like where it's going.

I think I've seen defensive bombard against amphibious attacks, but won't swear to it. Easy enough to test, though. I figured the hitpoint issue went without saying. I wonder, has anybody tried assembling their army at sea? For instance, you send two galleys, one containing a Berserk and an empty army, the other two Berserks, then simply wake transported, load the Zerks into the army and attack.

The only time I want my lawyer failing math is when he sends me the bill... or when I pay it.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Catt
Nice write-up, Solomwi.

I can't say I've ever really used a paratrooper in a "real" game for a "real" reason. I've dropped them as diversions in one experiment but without much effect.

That said, the little animation when they airdrop is quite cool, and I have on several occassions built a few paratroopers just to have them run around my empire airdropping onto my own mountains in training exercises and for troop morale

Catt

That's a great idea!

I also had not used them until AU 501. I used them for resource denial and then destruction of a lone city, but like an idiot forgot that they needed a way to get off the island!!

Great post and thread, Solomonwi.

As to your question, I don't think you can assemble a 3xBerserk Army at sea on a Galley.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Handicap: require city with airport (hell knows what for)

Never thought about this one. If any city can launch BOMBERS,
why the hell can't they launch a transport aircraft with paratroopers?

[Master Zen]

btw, it's been months since I played the modern age. I used have a lot of fun in that era. On Saturday I started a modified-demigod game with one victory condition: CONQUEST! The map is huge/18 civs/archipielago/60% water.

I think I'm going to restart it and disallow Nukes too. That would make it twice as fun since any war will have to be a long, drawn-out conventional conflict.