TOW Infantry

[Cabbagemeister]

The introduction of TOW Infantry seems to me to somewhat change the late-game strategy. First, I think I read somewhere on these forums that actual defensive strength is now computed by adding a unit's defensive strength to the units defensive bombard strength. So an archer now effectively has 2 on defense. The TOW Infantry, with its defense of 14 and bombard of 6, now effectively has a defensive strength of 20! That's more than a mechanized infantry.

Even if I'm totally off-base with that "add-bombard" thing, I would say that the TOW Infantry is still the better defender, when used in stacks. A stack of TOW Inf can support each other with defensive bombards, while a stack of MIs cannot. (C3C didn't give MI defensive bombard, did it?) I recently encountered this issue when playing as Russia. The Chinese declared on me in the late game and moved stacks of MI and TOWs into my territory. My MAs killed off the MIs okay, but had a lot more trouble with the defensive-bombarding TOWs.

If TOWs really are better defenders, then it adds some strategic complexity to the late-game. Effectively, it seems like TOWs are not the Medieval Infantry of the Modern age, the consolation prize you build when you're missing a resource. As the better defenders, I would prefer to garrison my cities with TOW stacks than MI stacks. MI, meanwhile, retain a strategic value as the defenders to use during your invasions, as they can better keep pace with MAs to immediately garrison newly-captured cities. At last, there's not an "obvious" build choice in the Modern Age--we get some strategy!

But if TOWs are better stationary defenders, the question then becomes, shouldn't Infantry upgrade to TOW Infantry instead of Mech Infantry? TOWs seem like the better upgrade choice not only from a strategic perspective (the role of the TOW is more like how you use Infantry than is the role of the MechInf), but also from a commonsense perspective (it makes more sense to give riflemen TOWs than to give them vehicles or whatever).

[DrSpike]

Well only one path can upgrade to Mech. Infantry. I know it's a bit weird but I think it works fine in practice.

[Goethe80]

I'm not sure if the TOW is strictly better than the MI. I would agree that in reasonably large packs, they would have an advantage as they can cross-bombard defensively. However, if defending in small groups (1 or 2), I would still take the MI.

And while I'm not an expert, I don't think the bombard rating adds to defense. Archers certainly don't feel like they have a 2 def.

That said, I don't entirely agree with the way the TOW infantry is implemented in civ3. In practise, TOW rockets are typically mounted on jeeps due to their weight (both the wpn and especially the ammo). They're also typically used in harassing movements, or to beef up scouting/picket forces. So, if it were up to me, a TOW would have at least 2 movement, less defense, and a higher attack. Their role would be much more along the lines of a mobile counter-attacking force.

[DrSpike]

TOW are not really better than Mech. Infantry. By this time you'll have stacks of artillery for bombard anyway, and Mech. Infantry is a 2 move unit.

[Aqualung71]

TOW is the ultimate upgrade for units on the Longbowman upgrade path, all of which have the benefit of defensive bombard.

For this reason I think the TOW is an excellent unit, since Longbowmen/Guerillas and some UU have no other upgrade path. In vanilla civ this left them as pretty useless 4/1/1 Longbows for the rest of the game, and in PTW they only unpgraded as far as 6/6/1 Guerillas IIRC - still pretty useless from the late-industrial age onwards. We now have a unit with a reasonable attack and a quite useful defence, also doubling as defensive artillery. Not half bad if you ask me!

I think this is just a more verbose way of saying what DrSpike was pointing out....that it's finally given us a "tidy" way to collect all those obsolet units, and works pretty well in practice.

[joncnunn]

TOW is also the ultimate upgrade for units on the Warrior upgrade path. (Warrior - Sword Men [or UU] - Med Inf - Guerrlia - TOW)

It's actually a life saver if you happen not to have Oil and had the foresight not to disband those ancient warriors you first built as Police Men in early game.

Yes, TOW is best in stacks. But not too big a stack or else the AI will never attack it anyway.

[dworkin]

They look nifty too. With mechanical infantry you just get the boring box on wheels thing.

[alexman]

TOW is not better than Mechanized Infantry for defense.

Take an example: Veteran Modern Armor attacking a veteran defender fortified in a grassland city (85% defensive bonus).

Ignoring retreat (which favors the MI even more), a defending MI wins 67% of the time, whereas a defending TOW backed by another TOW wins 58% of the time.

[Last Conformist]

A nice-ish property of TOW that MI lacks is the ability to be dropped by Helicopters, while still defending better than Inf.

[joncnunn]

Did that include the round of bombardment the Modern Armor would be subjected to?

In Fall of Rome Conquest, I noted that a small stack of Warlords were suprizely effective at defense dispite their very low defense stat because of their high bombardment stat.

Originally posted by alexman
TOW is not better than Mechanized Infantry for defense.

Take an example: Veteran Modern Armor attacking a veteran defender fortified in a grassland city (85% defensive bonus).

Ignoring retreat (which favors the MI even more), a defending MI wins 67% of the time, whereas a defending TOW backed by another TOW wins 58% of the time.

[alexman]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Did that include the round of bombardment the Modern Armor would be subjected to?

Of course. Otherwise just comparing the defensive values of the two units would be enough to tell which one is better...

[Elias]

I modded the TOW so it only has 10 on defence so the people with resources still keep the advantage. Could somone explains the bombard when attacking thing though how much bombard do you get to keep when playing def it never seems like its enough to do much.

I also change MI to a bradly unit I downloaded it looks much better.

[joncnunn]

Elais, changes in TOW for the base game are virtually mute.

I heard from multi-player groups that it's rare for such games to get into the Industrial era.

And in my single player games, they tend to either be lost in Ancient Era / early Middle ages or else won in late Middle ages / early Industrial.

Also, the AI in calculating military strength cares much more about the offensive factor than the defensive calculator.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Did that include the round of bombardment the Modern Armor would be subjected to?

In Fall of Rome Conquest, I noted that a small stack of Warlords were suprizely effective at defense dispite their very low defense stat because of their high bombardment stat.

The warlords were made into a puree sauce with my heavy cavalry though Sassanids rule!

[joncnunn]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Elais, changes in TOW for the base game are virtually mute.

I heard from multi-player groups that it's rare for such games to get into the Industrial era.

And in my single player games, they tend to either be lost in Ancient Era / early Middle ages or else won in late Middle ages / early Industrial. (With just a matter of mailing in the turns to get to modern era for spaceship or UN or culture)

Also, the AI in calculating military strength cares much more about the offensive factor than the defensive calculator.