Monarchy vs. Fascism ?

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by jamesyao

and, how to give my civ some 'religious'? is it pre-determined by their nationality, or some wonder can turn them into, or some other way?

It was not clear to me if you got your answer. Each civ has two traits. Some have religious as one of their traits. It cannot be changed with out a mod.

Do a search for the C3Cref 1.03 in xls. It has a chart with lots of this stuff in one place.

Use the pedia for more detail.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by The Pioneer
Only if I could understand how the FP functions in C3C

So long...

The old way:

The FP acted just like a duplicate palace, doubling the optimal city number (OCN) and, if properly placed, effectively doubling the productivity of your empire. There was also a bug, the FP rank bug, that meant that any cities positioned closer to the FP than any cities were to the Palace were ranked 0 or 1. This, coupled with Ring City Placement, could offer an additional boost (not that I ever took the effort of working that out).

The new way:

The Forbidden Place now increases the OCN by 33% (instead of 100%). Cities nearer to the FP will use the distance from the FP to determine their distance corruption level, but rank corruption remains dependent on the Palace.

Basically, the old barbell shaped continental empire is dead. It is generally best to place the FP closer to home - often your neighbor's capital is a good spot (unless you have one of those games when they're right on top of you). This will produce an empire and a half, basically (33% OCN boost, plus the lowering of distance corruption in the FP area).

Overall, corruption isn't all that bad, since the OCNs were increased across the map sizes, maximum corruption rate has been dropped from 95% to 90%, and the effects of corruption fighting buildings have increased (dunno exactly how much). Then again, as far as I know, the RCP "fix" is still in effect, which effectively penalizes you if you happen to build several cities at the same distance from the palace.

Communism, meanwhile, got boosted by the addition of the Secret Police HQ, which has the same (cumulative) effect on the empire as does the FP under communism, providing an OCN boost. I'm no expert, but I think the boost is the same as under the other governments - 33%. So with both, you've now got a 66% boost.

So the power of Monarchy, Republic and Demo got reduced (at least for the warmongers who would create an empire large enough to take full benifit from the old corruption system), and Communism was boosted. It is now an excellent choice, I think, for those who like large empires - especially those who don't like corruption and really want to bother specializing corrupt cities to function as specialist centers. Me, for example.

-Arrian

p.s. alexman, please make sure I'm not leading people astray.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Arrian
Then again, as far as I know, the RCP "fix" is still in effect, which effectively penalizes you if you happen to build several cities at the same distance from the palace.

Ugh, can anyone confirm this? Alexman? I thought it was ironed out in the xmas beta patch (1.12, IIRC). I didn't play since then and follow the patches, so I don't know if it returned.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Arrian

The FP acted just like a duplicate palace, doubling the optimal city number (OCN) and, if properly placed, effectively doubling the productivity of your empire.

Actually, it didn't double the OCN, it increased it by just 10%. Of course, if you had it optimally placed, then it effectively doubled the OCN because you got two completely separate sets of ranks for each palace.

There was also a bug, the FP rank bug, that meant that any cities positioned closer to the FP than any cities were to the Palace were ranked 0 or 1.

Just to be a pain, and since you invited me to comment, let me say that the bug was actually that the rank of a city which was closer to the FP than the Palace was given by the number of cities closer to the Palace than the distance of that city to the FP. That meant that it the bug affected all cities that were closer to the FP than the Palace, but you only really noticed it when the city density was different around your Palace than around your FP.

The Forbidden Place now increases the OCN by 33%

The number is actually 37.5% (3/8) for non-communal governments and 300% for Communism.

Overall, corruption isn't all that bad, since the OCNs were increased across the map sizes, maximum corruption rate has been dropped from 95% to 90%, and the effects of corruption fighting buildings have increased (dunno exactly how much).

Each curruption fighting building reduces maximum corruption by 10%. So a city with a courthouse and a police station has a max corruption of 70%.

Then again, as far as I know, the RCP "fix" is still in effect, which effectively penalizes you if you happen to build several cities at the same distance from the palace.

They actually fixed it properly so that when two cities are at the same distance from the palace, a tie-breaker of founding date is used to determine the rank. Even if they are also equally old cities, they still get different ranks (you just have to know their order in the database to predict their rank).

All the rest was correct. Thanks for explaining it. I'm usually too lazy and point people to my corruption thread so they can figure it out themselves.

[Arrian]

See, this is why I wanted you to comment. About half the stuff I wrote was wrong.



Ok, so the FP increases the OCN by 300% for communism Same bonus for the SPHQ? So with both you've got a 600% OCN increase? No wonder communism is so powerful.

RE: OCN increase for the FP under the old system... I see where I got confused. Because I was all about placing my FP and Palace such that they were a long way apart, and had nice seperate spheres of influence, it was like doubling the OCN, because of the new set of city ranks.

37.5%, right. 3/8. I knew that, really I did.

Just to be a pain, and since you invited me to comment, let me say that the bug was actually that the rank of a city which was closer to the FP than the Palace was given by the number of cities closer to the Palace than the distance of that city to the FP. That meant that it the bug affected all cities that were closer to the FP than the Palace, but you only really noticed it when the city density was different around your Palace than around your FP.

You're not being a pain. But I have to admit it's still too early for me to work my way through this. I'm confused, and that's ok. The game doesn't work this way anymore.

They actually fixed it properly so that when two cities are at the same distance from the palace, a tie-breaker of founding date is used to determine the rank. Even if they are also equally old cities, they still get different ranks (you just have to know their order in the database to predict their rank).

Oh, wow! Somehow I either never knew or forgot that they had fixed that. Good

-Arrian

[kolpo]

In conquests is communism not only a good war government but even a good peace government when you have a big empire. I even sometimes end up gaining MORE tax money under communism then under democracy because communism has very little corruption(with secret police).

[Solver]

OK, I haven't played with Conquests up to that point.... not that I have had the game for long, but here's what I'm thinking. Is it really worth to build the Secret Police HQ and go into Communism then, contrary to staying in a Democracy and reaping the other benefits, IF you have a builder empire?

[alexman]

1) It depends on the size and shape of your empire.
2) The SPHQ doesn't make as much difference as you think

[Arrian]

Basically what alexman said.

When I switched to communism, the benifits were clear. I was playing a religious civ (quick transition), I owned an entire continent on a standard-size continental map (1/2 the world, roughly), and I had a MGL available to rush the SPHQ immediately. My old core areas were very well developed, but about 1/2 the continent was pretty underdeveloped due to max corruption under Republic. When I switched, research stayed about the same, but shield production exploded.

alexman is right about the SPHQ. It didn't seem to make a huge difference. I actually didn't realize the SPHQ required espionage, so I switched governments immediately after researching communism and found I couldn't build the SPHQ yet. I had to wait 4 turns to research espionage and rush it. That's a tech I often don't bother with, actually.

Anyway, it didn't seem to make a big difference. That's not real specific, I know, sorry.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

At the very least it could allow you to build happiness improvements in corrupt areas to set them up to be specialist cities, and then switch back.

The only irritation for me is going to be not being able to cashrush. I know that's gonna piss me off.

-Arrian

[planetfall]

Arrian,

Simple don't upgrade to 1.20 from 1.15 when it comes out. Build your SPHQ and switch back to republic/demo and you still get the SPHQ benes.

PF

[alexman]

Too late, it was already fixed in 1.15

[planetfall]

Darn, I was going to try that this week and see how the bug worked. Oh well, I still plan to give commies a try. I just don't like the pop rush method.

[alexman]

I don't mind the pop-rush because it encourages me to save my cash for more fun stuff, like espionage missions which are more likely to succeed in Communism due to veteran spies.

Otherwise, the extra cash is always nice to have for upgrades, alliances, luxury purchases, et cetera.

Also, Communists don't need cash rushing as much since all their cities are productive.

[jamesyao]

I have to print this thread out and read on my way back home, too much info..........