Patch 1.20

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by planetfall
.... A easier path as we get Radio and Adv Flight together. Two techs for the price of one. No more nuisance of one tile islands. Whoopee.

PF

Now, if Firaxis could make ironclads available with steam power instead of requiring yet another tech.....

[ErikM]

It is Firaxis' priorities that I find somewhat puzzling.

For months, since C3C came out, people complain about invisible sub bug, resource scarcity, new corruption model (Ok I'll concede it might be a feature) etc.

For years, since Civ3 came out, people complain about interface problems, like no ability to gang-terraform and getting 12 "Are you sure" popups from domestic advisor when you want to irrigate grassland mined in Despotism.

Now, did you hear anyone complain about the Radio tech?

Why fix what's not broken instead of fixing what is broken?

[DrSpike]

Whilst I made several posts on my surprise at the new FP model, not to mention my disbelieving that they intended it as it is now all along, I do actually think that it's an improvement. Whether or not they should be tinkering with it is another issue. For sure IMO they should leave it as it is now. What they need to do:

1) Fix the annoying bugs, with the sub bug only being the poster child.

2) Reinstate the AI tweaks that PTW had. Why are these gone? Why does the AI irrigate grassland in despotism? Why does it space its cities even worse than ever? Why are the barbs such wussy pink blouse wearing girls? I have more.

3) Decide whether resource scarcity is a bug or a feature. If the first state when it will be fixed.

4) Some fixable balance issues are evident. I'm not talking about major changes to what has always been a rubbish govt system, or anything like that. I just mean balancing the traits a little better. For goodness sake nerf the seafaring sink probability in ocean and sea. For god's sake take something away from agricultural, maybe no cheap aqueducts. For god's sake let's have a reasonable anarchy time (though this wont fix the govt system). I have more.

Give me one day with the Firaxis coders (and maybe a weapon or 2 ) and I'd give you a 10 times more balanced game.

When this is done we'll have the best game possible within the Civ3 model. It is an advance over PTW *if these things are done*. Otherwise C3C will be seen as a shameless bite size snack between PTW and Civ4. I think the reactions here speak volumes about what the community will think about being fractured into 2 needlessly by an unfinished expansion seen as a filler by the developers.

Then, when we have reached the best game within the Civ3 model, Civ4 can address the shortcomings of the Civ3 model (whilst keeping the more successful additions) and work in a new sphere entirely. If that's 2 years away, fine, but for goodness sake don't delay finishing C3C.

[TheArsenal]

I can live with the game as patched. I’ve been enjoying it since the last beta. The sub thing bugs me to no end, but I will just put that unit in the unused pile next to the Explorer, F-14, Paratrooper and Helo.

That said I can’t imagine any other business that can acknowledge something is broken, acknowledge they won’t/can’t do anything about it, and try move on to produce another product for the same market without the slightest expectation of buyer backlash.

Not bashing, observing.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Doc
1) Fix the annoying bugs, with the sub bug only being the poster child.

Agreed 100%. Fortunately, there are not too many of these left. Two others I can put in that category are that the Scientific Golden Age doesn't work properly, and that war weariness is not calculated properly for all players but the first.

2) Reinstate the AI tweaks that PTW had. Why are these gone? Why does the AI irrigate grassland in despotism? Why does it space its cities even worse than ever? Why are the barbs such wussy pink blouse wearing girls? I have more.

Agreed again! IMO as important as the previous point. By the way don't forget the biggest AI regression of them all: it no longer uses leaders to build Armies!

3) Decide whether resource scarcity is a bug or a feature. If the first state when it will be fixed.

OK, although this is easily moddable, and balanced either way, IMO. Not nearly as important as the first two points.

4) Some fixable balance issues are evident. I'm not talking about major changes to what has always been a rubbish govt system, or anything like that. I just mean balancing the traits a little better. For goodness sake nerf the seafaring sink probability in ocean and sea. For god's sake take something away from agricultural, maybe no cheap aqueducts. For god's sake let's have a reasonable anarchy time (though this wont fix the govt system). I have more.

Very important! Weaken the Seafaring and Agricultural Traits! Reduce Anarchy time! And I would add one more: Balance the govenments! (boost Feudalism and Fascism, and nerf Communism and Republic a bit).

[Willem]

Originally posted by alexman
By the way don't forget the biggest AI regression of them all: it no longer uses leaders to build Armies!

Yes, I've been noticing that. Awhile ago, playing the Middle Ages scenario, I had 9 armies in the field. But I didn't see a single AI army! It makes it far to overpowering for the human player, the AI does stand a chance against those odds, especially after the enhancements made to Armies in the Conquests.

[DrSpike]

Hehe nice to see you agree with my points Alexman. The army thing is annoying for sure now that they are more powerful.

I didn't mention the govt system because upon much reflection I've come to the conclusion it cannot be fixed within the Civ3 model. It can only be fixed by changes that are too major. Sure you can add to my list that they can tweak the existing system so that's its better, as you are trying in the mod, but I think it's too late to make the govt system a good one at this stage. Lessons have been learnt for Civ4 I hope.

[player1]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Now, if Firaxis could make ironclads available with steam power instead of requiring yet another tech.....

Well, it's made to be 2 techs to give Frigates some chance in the game. And not to be never to be used unit by players.

I'm satisifed by that.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Doc
Give me one day with the Firaxis coders (and maybe a weapon or 2 ) and I'd give you a 10 times more balanced game.

Here! Here! I'm with you!

Good work on your analysys, too. I always knew you were a reasonable chap

[DrSpike]

In a way it's a serious point. In MP RTS, where balance is the be all and end all, companies like Blizzard hire tournament players to tell them what to patch and how to patch it. Then they implement it. I wonder if this will ever be true for TBS, which will always be heavily SP dominated. Jesse, PM me and I'll be Civ4 balance consultant for a pittance.

[ErikM]

Paradox programmers even play EU2 MP with forumites in their spare time. So they actually know what the balance issues are.

Little wonder half of Apolytoners have migrated to Paradox boards

[Theseus]

Did I mention Marine+Berserk Armies?

Good calls, Doc (still can't get over that you are DrSpike... the first week or saw I was reading your posts, I was like "Damn, this guy knows what he's talking about, where did he come from? ).

Again, while there is some frustration, I say give Jesse a break, and let's all help him as much as we can. Business models and practices aside, this here situation is what it is... we are lucky enough to have some enthusiasts on the development side, and they need all the forebearance, leeway, and assistance that we can provide.

Thanks again, Jesse!

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Theseus
Good calls, Doc (still can't get over that you are DrSpike... the first week or saw I was reading your posts, I was like "Damn, this guy knows what he's talking about, where did he come from? ).

Finally my revenge for wondering why the hell Rpodos went from enthusiastic poster to completely quiet.

I did put it in my sig.

[Fried-Psitalon]

Nevermind...

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by ErikM
Paradox programmers even play EU2 MP with forumites in their spare time. So they actually know what the balance issues are.

Little wonder half of Apolytoners have migrated to Paradox boards

Firaxis programmers have played civ3mp. I can think of one particular pbem where they were trounced

Has paradox ever released a game even as complete as C3C? Every game of theirs I've played required at least 6 months or patching before some manual features worked at all.