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Simply by having a very strong economy. You generally need to be in Republic or Democracy, and late in the game. If you're getting enough commerce, you can simply put the research slider to maximum, or close to it, and still be making enough money to get by. It helps to have lucrative deals with other civs, which can give you enough income while you're doing that. So it helps to have already made good tech discoveries to sell them in return for a lot of gold per turn, or to have good resources and luxuries to sell them.
In other words, there's no golden secret to it - it's just a matter of playing well. But I do think that making good trades is key. Four turns is simply the minimum time to get a single tech.
Modern age techs are hard to get in 4 turns without a defict. I t depends on your level and your empire.
The cost factor makes research more expensive as you move up and once you take the tech lead, you have to research on your own.
You can run defict spending. You can use scientist and taxmen to boost beakers and gold. You need to have all the city improvements in all viable cities (libs/unis/banks etc).
Originally posted by Plotinus
In other words, there's no golden secret to it - it's just a matter of playing well.
Well, there IS a golden secret, but I doubt I'll ever use it. If you get a Scientific Great Leader, you can use him to create a scientific golden age. If I get one (and so far, I've gotten precisely one, in AU501), if there isn't a Great Wonder that I want to rush right now there soon will be, and unlike MGLs you can apparently get an SGL when you already have one (on alternate blue moons, I think).
If you want help with this, get Smithswhatsitsname. All the gold you save on the commercial buildings can go back into research, and at the end, when the slider is punched down to ~10.0.0, the buildings multiply the gold you will get by about 1.8 (around an extra 200 at the end of the middle ages, 1000 end game).
You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.
Well, yes. I believe Mr. Smith's golden machine is the most important wonder in the game, if you want to build things and be 1st in research, that is...
An early Wall Street is the second best one...
Of course, NOT building lots of useless military units also helps...
Oh, this is my ... day, it seems...
I've never really been into Smith's myself....although this has probably got more to do with it's position in the tech tree compared to other wonders that I really want to have and so my best cities may be building Sistine and Bach by the time the inevitable Economics trade comes around. But I take your points about the cumulative effect on your income being quite powerful - I will have to try it and see.
So I'd like to pose a question - I noticed that some of you were using the luxury slider for much of the recent game on "caretaker" MS's Emperor thread, often at around 20%. Although I don't know individual trade/luxury circumstances, having to use the slider is usually a necessary evil and it never fails to horrify me how much a 20% luxury contribution costs you in terms of lost income/research. This is the main reason I go for Sistine every time I can (and to a lesser extent, JS Bach). With Sistine, once you've got your Cathedrals in place (and this applies to ALL your cities), happiness is usually not an issue, and you may even get the slight corruption-reducing bonus of WLT*D's.
[Pause to take a breath]
So my question, finally, is.......
Smiths is clearly a commerce based wonder while Sistine is a happiness based wonder. However, to the extent that Sistine allows you to operate with the luxury slider at a lower level, will the additional net income this allows you to generate through lower entertainment costs be less than or greater than the cost saving associated with Smiths?
My feeling is that the indirect commerce benefit of Sistine is probably greater than the benefit of Smiths in many cases. However, as is often the case, it probably depends largely on game conditions and play style.
For example, Smiths pays maintenance cost for trade-based improvements. For most of the game this means Harbours, Marketplaces and Banks (with Stock Exchanges/Airports/Comm. Docks coming much later). If you have a decent sized empire of say 50 well developed cities, it's easy to see how this can add up to a sizeable sum of money saved. In my last game I had only 24 cities so the effect would not have been as great if I had owned Smiths, whereas in past times I have had as many as 100 or more cities (many of course quite useless without many improvements and I doubt I would build so many cities again). Checking my last save, with 24 cities, a 10% luxury slider movement cost me 150 gold. This would not be a linear calculation though, and this number will increase more slowly as number of cities increases.
This is where play style comes in. When I first moved up to Emperor level, I generally gave up research and bought my techs because it just looked too hard. Over time, the folly of this strategy became clearer to me and I now concentrate on researching as fast as I can (hand in hand with better MM), but place a lot more importance on tech selection, allowing me to trade with the AI in a way that I hope will push me forward faster than any rival civ. Using the former approach, Marketplaces and Banks were pretty high on my build list. However, with the tech rate set at 80-100%, these trade improvements provide almost zero financial benefit. Compared to the science boost from Libraries/Universities and the culture bonuses, the build-list is a no-brainer (at least from an improvement choice standpoint). This means I will rarely build Banks and Stock exchanges until very late in the game. Marketplaces are of course important due to the happiness bonus (if you have at least 3 luxuries), and you may have Harbours in half your cities (more in archipelago, less probably in pangea).
So, given that you may not actually build some trade-based improvements until quite late in the game, the overall benefit of Smith’s may be less than you would otherwise think.
Also bear in mind that Economics comes quite a bit later than Theology in the tech tree (minimum of 3 techs if you go straight there, but probably more assuming you beeline for Theology then switch down to Invention). So if we assume (with allowance for trading) that you will research 4 techs between Theology and Economics at say 7 turns/tech , and given Sistine and Smiths both cost 600, you may build Sistine some 28 turns before Smiths is built (ignoring SGL’s and assuming similar pre-build opportunities). If you have Cathedrals up in most cities by then, this 28 turns will convert into a significant income gain from not using the luxury slider – assuming you haven’t accumulated enough luxury resources to avoid the slider (and if you have, you’ve undoubtedly paid for them anyway). Again – money today is worth a lot more tomorrow.
So based on the above, my feeling is that Sistine is a better overall wonder than Smiths. Faced with a choice of finishing Sistine or switching the build over to Smiths if I get Economics quickly (unlikely since I would have pre-built for Sistine so this choice would only arise if mega-trading brings Economics very quickly), I would choose Sistine every time.
So if you meet me have some courtesy, have some sympathy and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse, or I'll lay your soul to waste Re-Organisation of remaining C3C PBEMS
Since they come so far apart, if you can get Sistines, you can get Smiths. It is quite easy to miss Sistines above Emperor, unless you want to dedicate yourslef to it as a must have.
Some times I look at who is going for what. If a civ on the land mass is the likely builder of Sistine, I may let them do the work and pick it up a bit later for free.
I am not so sure about getting cathedrals in many cities after the first dozen or so. Maybe a handful later by the FP. So really how many cities will I have with them? I will have more cities with Harbors and markets. Even really bad coastal cities will have harbors. Often they will be captured with them and markets.
Originally posted by vmxa1
Since they come so far apart, if you can get Sistines, you can get Smiths.
Perhaps, but the point of my analysis is that Sistine is overall a more valuable wonder than Smiths. If you can get them both then great. If it's a choice, I'd go for Sistine.
So if you meet me have some courtesy, have some sympathy and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse, or I'll lay your soul to waste Re-Organisation of remaining C3C PBEMS
As vmxa1 stated, you can easily get both of them.
I (amost) always go for the 'north branch' like this:
By the time you get Literature, start a palace pre-built. In the early Middle Ages, go for Engineering and trade it for Feudalism and Monotheism.
Then I have THE choice: I can either go for Leo (I usually skip Sun Tsu) or the Sistine. The moment you make your choice (in this case, the Sistine), start a second pre-built for Smith and go for it directly (forget Printing Press).
The AI usually pays very well (gold + techs) for Education, Printing Press, Banking and Democracy.
But there is another advantage: the AI goes then for Music Theory and Free Artistry and loses precious turns researching them (+ lots of shields building the associated GW).
One of the reasons why I usually get insane amounts of gold is that I combine the power of the Sistine and Smith. Of course, you must have cathedrals, marketplaces and banks, this is why I usually don't go to war (errr, military police expeditions) during the MA.
Then you can afford to put the luxury slider at 20-30%.
Another thing: be very careful about what you build in (totally) corrupted cities, except for avoiding a cultural flip. A cathedral which costs me 2 gold/turn and brings me (sometimes) +1 shield +1 gold is a nonsense (but maybe I'm wrong on this account).
Thriller I am questioning the true value you place on Sistine, because I am dubious of having as many cathedrals as you are counting on. In C3C those cities after 15 maybe 20 are going to be hard press to build one and it is probably not a good investment to build one in them. Maybe once they get to size 12 or more they can afford it. After 25 or 30 cities, I really can't see it.
So this is why I am not so sure Sistines will be the best thing in town. Late game, those cities will be metros and will be able to make specialist and the gold will fuel research.
In short if I go for Sistine, I will surely get Smith. If I miss Sistines, I will still go for Smith.
Originally posted by vmxa1
Modern age techs are hard to get in 4 turns without a defict. I t depends on your level and your empire.
The cost factor makes research more expensive as you move up and once you take the tech lead, you have to research on your own.
If you're aquiring techs that fast, you can finance them by tech trading if you're playing against at least 7 civs. Sell them to backward countries, or stategically. When civs are buying from you, they tie up money that they could be using to buy from competitors.
If you're aquiring techs that fast, you can finance them by tech trading if you're playing against at least 7 civs. Sell them to backward countries, or stategically. When civs are buying from you, they tie up money that they could be using to buy from competitors.
The point is that you will have a hard time researching that fast, it is presumed you are running at a deficit. If you can crank out 4 turn techs in the modern age, you need to find a better game.
Trading or selling won't increase the number of beakers you can generate. It will finance the deficit.
Anyway it is unlikely that you will have 7 civs left at that stage of the game and that they will have much money. There are no backward civs in the modern age in my games. Either the other civs have dusted them or I have, if they were on my land mass.
MS - again, I don't disagree. If you can get both then wonderful. In terms of which has more impact on your ability to generate commerce, I was trying to show that there is a commerce side to Sistine that players often don't appreciate because it lowers your luxury slider if you get your Cathedrals in place. Sistines + Cathedrals in most cities is a long term investment that will allow you to run the slider at 0% in the Industrial age, just when you need a research boost.
vmxa1 - I guess it depends on the sie of your empire. I generally build Cathedrals in any city that can give me say 5 shields or more. Any more decent contributor I would probably go for University first for the research, but Cathedral first if not. And I like the culture boost of both anyway. If I've got enough spare cash, I will rush them both anyway.....which again Sistine helps because you can keep your luxury slider down.
So if you meet me have some courtesy, have some sympathy and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse, or I'll lay your soul to waste Re-Organisation of remaining C3C PBEMS
I forget what do they cost 160 shields for most civs. That will take some time for most cities on outskirts. Don't get me wrong, I put them up where ever I can justify it. I won't in cities that need 80 or more turns.
The point about the lux slider is one I am not so sure of. Once I start using it, it almost never gets down to zero again.
Emperor thread, often at around 20%. Although I don't know individual trade/luxury circumstances, having to use the slider is usually a necessary evil and it never fails to horrify me how much a 20% luxury contribution costs you in terms of lost income/research. This is the main reason I go for Sistine every time I can (and to a lesser extent, JS Bach). With Sistine, once you've got your Cathedrals in place (and this applies to ALL your cities), happiness is usually not an issue, and you may even get the slight corruption-reducing bonus of WLT*D's.
, and given Sistine and Smiths both cost 600, you may build Sistine some 28 turns before Smiths is built (ignoring SGL’s and assuming similar pre-build opportunities). If you have Cathedrals up in most cities by then, this 28 turns will convert into a significant income gain from not using the luxury slider – assuming you haven’t accumulated enough luxury resources to avoid the slider (and if you have, you’ve undoubtedly paid for them anyway). Again – money today is worth a lot more tomorrow.
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