C3C: Is "Builder" still viable?

[lethe]

Wait, I won't replay it. It's Friday, and unlike other people I have busy weekends and pretty free weekdays. Oh well.

Another thought: Don't build the Pyramids. Unless you are going for a One City Cultural win don't build early wonders at all. Let the AI build them for you. Hmm, this goes against the pure builder thought I guess. But you claimed to be an opportunist. It's pretty likely someone on your landmass will build em.

I'll disagree with vxma1, there is no reason to use camps with this start. You are forced into a 3-tile expansion scheme with the shape of the land, and so would be very cramped if you built camps. Especially with a nice river to allow core cities to grow to 12 very early. Reading up on camps is a good idea though.

Threads on REXing and Camps should be read.

[vmxa1]

I did not say camps should be used. He said he had some and I said I don't see them.
It matters not to me if they are used or not at Regent. Don't forget we have the advantage of seeing the map, so we know it is not very amendable to camps.

You will still need a place dedicated to making workers and troops. The difference between that and a camp is you disband a camp at some point (except at Sid).

[lethe]

Ok, at the risk of totally derailing this thread, why don't you disband your camps at Sid level?

[vmxa1]

Because you will need to keep making units. Well I may have make a mistake, but that is what I did. The AI will have hundreds of units in the early industrial age at Sid. You had better be making replacement units and to stop them from making it to the limit (4096) and leaving you with too few to fight back. I keep 3 camps building non stop.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Um...in passing on my way to (believe it or not) sleep, I don't think I said I had any camps. Just did a quick text search and the first mention of "camp" is in one of vmxa1's messages. Maybe I said it by another name. My usual is one worker per city, and I'm very surprised to hear I only have three total (*very* surprised). OTOH, I just lost a couple to a "massive barbarian uprising" (which I forget how to avert). Hey! Don't I have two workers hiding from chariots right now, up north?

I'm familiar with the REX threads, though I really wasn't going that route this game. I still tend to more perfectionistic wider spacing, though in AU501 I put my second city two away from my first. I've read a bunch about trying to set up 4-turn settler pumps (and am I mistaken in thinking this position will work for 5-turn, but not 4-turn?) OTOH, I'm not familiar with threads about camps. Link, please?

Have a nice weekend, at or away from the keyboard! Thanks again for continuing advice. "I am but an egg."

-- HtL

[vmxa1]

It was my fault, you used the term pump and I used camp. I treat them the same, but some consider it to be for settlers.

A pump cn be any number of turns in my book. You make them as short as you can. If it is 5 or 6, so be it.

Many use the term camp for troops production, but my camps often put out worker and settlers at times. It depends on how fast it is growing. I will use workers or settlers to keep the size in line to avoid too many unhappy citizens.

Sorry for any confusion.

[vmxa1]

Hermann the Lombard in your first post what was the year> You mentioned year one, so is that 1AD time frame?

[vmxa1]

Hermann the Lombard I ran it out to 330AD before anyone wanted to fight. Russia made a demand for gold, not likely.

They are slightly ahead in score due to making too many troops.
My culture will soon swamp them as it so much bigger.
Pyramids, GL, Colossus, and Mausoleum done. Great Lighthouse underway.

Stopped expanding for a time as the GL trigger a GA. Soon could start up again.

Both vulcanos blew, so took a hit in the capitol. So I would say it would not be hard to play with no starting wars.

Need to switch now to republic, but will only 23 units and 4 or 5 cities over size 6, it should not be an issue.

The GL will probably not net much now as three of us at least are in the Middle Ages. You would need to research hard enough to be first to techs now.

Need to get a city down for the grapes as no lux so far. The Russians dropped a city on the incense. That will be either flip or captured. You have to wait until it get a second pop or a culture bump.

I did the run with no camps and loose placement, no heavy micro managing. This was so to see if it could be claimed a builder play was valid.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Hermann the Lombard in your first post what was the year> You mentioned year one, so is that 1AD time frame?

You're not confused, but I sometimes am! We were using different terms *and* different people use them differently. I'm just getting the hang of pumping in AU-501, and I'd still slip off the 4-turn cycle from time to time...but ran out of continent about that time.

Turned out to be 370 BC (as the last saved BC position). I have since played to about 260 AD. I probably remember having more workers from having played on.

[SIZE=1]Hermann the Lombard I ran it out to 330AD before anyone wanted to fight. Russia made a demand for gold, not likely..

The only reason I fought earlier is because I picked the fight...to expand my northern holding for a hoped-for FP and figuring that more cities would help me resist cultural reversion. At Regent, *maybe*...

[SIZE=1] My culture will soon swamp them as it so much bigger. Pyramids, GL, Colossus, and Mausoleum done. Great Lighthouse underway.

Some builder I am; I got only the one Wonder.

[SIZE=1] Both vulcanos blew, so took a hit in the capitoL.

There goes the neighborhood!

[SIZE=1] Need to switch now to republic, but will only 23 units and 4 or 5 cities over size 6, it should not be an issue.

Belligerent that I chose to be, I overbuilt units, so switching to Republic cost a bundle. If I was going to fight, I suppose I should have chosen Monarchy. If Religious, switching would be feasible.

[SIZE=1] Need to get a city down for the grapes as no lux so far. The Russians dropped a city on the incense. That will be either flip or captured. You have to wait until it get a second pop or a culture bump.

Yeah, I put two cities down there (plus the one SE of the volcano), and plan to build more...in part so the area isn't a magnet for AI settler teams. At least the Egyptian teams are supplying me with workers.

[SIZE=1] I did the run with no camps and loose placement, no heavy micro managing. This was so to see if it could be claimed a builder play was valid.

The capital can be a camp anyway, given ample food and shields. Yeah, I know, some builder if I don't make my capital a showpiece! Anyway, thanks so much for looking at my game. Right now I'm belatedly trying AU-501. Just got my first Dromon so I'm off to look at the second set of DARs. I'm learning a lot and having fun!

[smellymummy]

builder is still possible. I did it recently on emperor as the babylonians, 9 squared cities and with a space race victory, although a lower than normal score

i think to win as builder, a religious/scientific/industrious/agri civ is a must.

[vmxa1]

Hermann the Lombard I will look forward to your AAR on AU501. It was a large map, coming at a time when I had just played a Huge and then Large. I started it at deity and realized it was a large and decided I did not want to play a large at that point, plus I am not fond of island maps.