ZoC & Defensive bombardment

[Jaybe]

I have never cared for the "barricade" effect of Barricades. It should stop a unit when it comes adjacent to be appropriate. OTOH, the defense bonus of Barricades is fine.

BTW, the only time you have a fort left vacant is when a fort comes with its own garrison!

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Zero
..., saying RTS is a clickfest is another.

RTS games are clickfests per definition, this is a property and not a flaw. One likes it (you), the other doesn't (me). One likes to think 5 minutes if he should irrigate a tile or better mine it (me), the other likes to build five farms in two seconds (you). That doesn't make one player better and the other worse. It just makes them different.

No need to get offended, by the way.

[vmxa1]

I like both, but prefer TBS or RPG.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


RTS games are clickfests per definition, this is a property and not a flaw. One likes it (you), the other doesn't (me). One likes to think 5 minutes if he should irrigate a tile or better mine it (me), the other likes to build five farms in two seconds (you). That doesn't make one player better and the other worse. It just makes them different.

No need to get offended, by the way.

No it is not a clickfest by definition. What idiotic RTS players click buttons like crazy?

How the hell am I supposed to take "clickfest" any other than "there is no skill in RTS cause time is a factor and all you have to do is build things faster"? I doubt you meant it any other way. Yeah, Civ is ****ing Clickfest too if you think about it. Think about all the mouse click you need to do to move units queue builds etc

Maybe you didnt mean to insinuate that RTS is some brainless game, maybe not. But the way ur still trying to defend yourself by insisting your original statement is somehow justified DOES make me mad for real now.

[SporkPimp]

Uh... maybe he's just saying that RTS games rely on having very high dexterity, hand-eye coordination, and memorization to succeed?

The primary factor in most RTS games is how fast you play, not how smart you play. The guy who can micromanage his units while simultaneously out-producing casual players 5-to-1 (laughable, actually... it's generally more like 10-to-1) wins. The fact that great skill is required to come up with winning strategies doesn't take away the fact that actually implementing them is a game of speed.

It's like an FPS, for that matter... it doesn't matter how goddamned clever you are if you can't make decisions faster than the other guy. Knowing where to shoot falls second to actually shooting, etc. etc...

...you know, this is a ridiculously off-topic argument.

Yes, RTS games are clickfests. No, they aren't mindless. Let's all get over ourselves.

-SporkPimp

[Zero]

Originally posted by SporkPimp
Uh... maybe he's just saying that RTS games rely on having very high dexterity, hand-eye coordination, and memorization to succeed?

Is that the first thing you picture when someone says "this game is a clickfest"? I dunno if Im crazy or something, but first thing that comes to my mind isnt anything but what you said above when I hear "clickfest".

EDIT:

The primary factor in most RTS games is how fast you play, not how smart you play.

WRONG. And your example shows just how much you understanding you have of RTS. Maybe if your opponent is incredibly craptastic, you could produce 5:1, 10:1 ratio. Primary factor ISNT how fast you play. Yes playing fast is extremly important... obviously cause its in real time, but at high level gaming there are things called build orders and just about every good players have roughly same fast play not to be outproduced when starting positions are the same. The way you win RTS isnt building **** fast, its using strategy to gain upper hand that allows you to be able to outproduce.

In warcraft III, even most scrub players can build about same amount of units as the speed of good players build. Its not that hard.

First game of warcraft I remember is building mass huntress. And when I attacked my opponent who had 2/3 less unit I got my ass handed down because he wasnt sending all his units to attack like I was scrubily doing at the time.

[Zero]

Alright, normally I wouldnt get into an argument and wouldnt care less what anyone says about anything...

RTS is not a clickfest. The word clickfest itself is an insult and a wrong terminology. Its just as wrong as calling fighting games masher games. No, just mashing buttons and doing combos dont win you games.

As both fighter and RTS gamer I hear these two misconceptions over and over again. And frankly its really irratating when someone who doesnt even know how to play those games think they can claim to understand it.

Im sorry I even bothered getting mad. If you seriously still believe RTS to be a clickfest its fine by me. I shouldnt really care what others think anyway and will have to live just to disagree... Its not my job to go around preaching what is correct all the time anyway. I guess I just got annoyed hearing the same thing over and over. Its wasnt your fault for not knowing in the first place anyway....

[vmxa1]

Zero people have used the term clickfest for RTS for some time and if you play Starcraft as the Zergs you can see what they mean.
Yes you click as much or more in some TBS games, but they are actually refering to the mode you getting into during combat in RTS.

It can be difficult to manage large numbers of units in a real time combat as yo usee in games like C&C, Warcraft, Age of Empires and on up the line.

All great games BTW.

[Rommel2D]

Originally posted by Zero
Is that the first thing you picture when someone says "this game is a clickfest"?

I picture an ideal world where such a duscussion wasn't taking up space in the regular civ forums.

OnT: I was sketchy on this in vanilla/PtW and have no idea about conquests- Do AA units/ city improvements have 0 range defensive ability against air attacks? Do they do anything against attacks on adjacent tiles? Also, what does the SAM battery do? The Civopedia doesn't give any numbers or other details.

[Zero]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Zero people have used the term clickfest for RTS for some time and if you play Starcraft as the Zergs you can see what they mean.

I do play as the zerg in BW. There is alot of moving ur units back and forth (advance and retreat) and moving small to individual unit to get them to desired strategic location (unit trap etc). I know.

Only people that use the term clickfest are people that diss RTS. Try googling for the word and see if you can find one positive use out of it. You're better off defending the word "******" isnt actually an insult to black people. Try convincing them that ****** is a word soley used to "describe black people".

All great games BTW

I agree

I picture an ideal world where such a duscussion wasn't taking up space in the regular civ forums.

Yeah and I picture an ideal world where i didnt have to respond to these ignorant posts in the first place

[Jaybe]

All AA units/improvements only affect their own tile. Only aircraft on air superiority have more than same-tile range.

[Zero]

can u increase their range in the civ3 editor?

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Zero
can u increase their range in the civ3 editor?

No, you cannot increase the range of ground-unit/improvement AA units.

AA is just for local defense. Use your interceptors for area defense, building forward airbases as necessary. Interceptors are SO much more effective.

[Rommel2D]

Originally posted by Zero
Only people that use the term clickfest are people that diss RTS. Try googling for the word and see if you can find one positive use out of it.

The only games I've played in some time besides TBS are Starcraft and RoN clickfests. I've never tried them MP, so I guess I'm just ignorant, but I find SP they're a nice change of pace. They don't seem to make for great conversation, though...

So when an AA unit or SAM battery are attacked, do they defend with with their air defense value, or take a single potshot in support?

[Inverse Icarus]

there is a lot of skill in RTS games, but the point sir ralph was making was that in the civ-genre, you should be able to sit back and think about things for a while.

in an RTS, you don't have that luxury (usually). if you sit back for 5 minutes, the enemy has 5 minutes more production than you.

with the use of queues and waypoints, the "clickfest" effect is getting dampened, but it's still a lot more "rapidfire" than civ.