SGL's are unbalancing

[Kuciwalker]

In the Middle Ages conquest, playing as the Byzantines (who aren't Scientific in that, but religious, which is annoying because there's no government change), I've gotten 2 SGL's. The first one probably changed the course of the entire game for me - I decided to research Western Church, which gave me access to the Holy Roman Empire wonder. Normally I would've had no chance at this, but of course I got it with the SGL. The Holy Roman Empire give 2 free techs, better chance at leaders, and 4-size armies. That, in turn, gave me the Viking and Arab techs. Now, in the High Middle Ages, I have a several-tech lead and ALL OF THE OPTIONAL TECHS except for Defender of Europe and Intelligence Operations (both Byzantine techs). I'm saving the other SGL for Magna Carta. I don't know if it's just the power of Holy Roman Empire, but I think SGL's are too random to be balanced - especially given the tiny difference between the probability for Scientific civs and non-Scientific ones.

[steven8r]

Skywalker, In that instance, you may be right. However, SGL's are random and there's no guarantee that you'd get one. Even if you hadn't gotten an SGL, you'd probably still be ahead of all the AI's (perhaps by not as much).

It sounds more like the Wonder is VERY strong. That coupled w/ your building it via SGL could be an 'unbalanced combo', but I don't think that either by themselves would be too unbalanced.

I just hate to declare them 'unbalanced' for fear that they'd be removed or something. And I have yet to even see one in my games, epic/conquest or otherwise.

Steven

BTW, on your success w/ that scenario. I'm envious.

[Capt Dizle]

I get this mental picture of a French knight throwing a red flag and screaming "time out" at which point God comes jogging out of a cloud.

"Longbows are unbalancing and give the English too much of an advantage", says the French knight.

God reviews the play and concludes that the longbowmen had both feet in bounds. "The play stands!", says He.

The French continue to be slaughtered, which is of course, historically accurate gaming.

By God.

[Jaybe]

Awesome, JT!

[Fosse]

One amazingly helpful use of SGL's shouldn't qualify them as unbalancing. They are certainly a damn sight better than when MGLs could rush wonders. With enough elites you could intentionally generate five or six per turn. In the early Middle Ages that could get you some awesome wonders right away.

The only unbalanced part about them is that once you have a clear tech lead you are likely to be the only player with a chance to generate one. But, once you are the clear tech leader the game is over anyhow...


Nice scenario work, by the way.

[civman2000]

They seem ot be rare enough not to be imbalancing...as a scientific civ in one game I was the first to research almost all of the ancient techs, all of the middle ages, and the beginning of the industrial techs and only got one of them!

[Myrddin]

On the other hand, as the Byzantines, I got 1 SGL for Philosophy and 1 for the free tech (Republic) from Philosophy

Game over

[vmxa1]

They are rather rare, so they are not a big issue over all. They are going to make a big impact if they come at the right time or wrong time for the others.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by steven8r
Skywalker, In that instance, you may be right. However, SGL's are random and there's no guarantee that you'd get one. Even if you hadn't gotten an SGL, you'd probably still be ahead of all the AI's (perhaps by not as much).

It sounds more like the Wonder is VERY strong. That coupled w/ your building it via SGL could be an 'unbalanced combo', but I don't think that either by themselves would be too unbalanced.

I just hate to declare them 'unbalanced' for fear that they'd be removed or something. And I have yet to even see one in my games, epic/conquest or otherwise.

Steven

BTW, on your success w/ that scenario. I'm envious.

I wouldn't have been able to build it, had I not had an SGL. I was probably 20 turns behind on it, because the other civs building it started with Western Church.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by civman2000
They seem ot be rare enough not to be imbalancing...as a scientific civ in one game I was the first to research almost all of the ancient techs, all of the middle ages, and the beginning of the industrial techs and only got one of them!

The rareness is what makes them unbalancing - that and that the probability isn't much different for Scientific civs. It is an ENORMOUS help, and is even more luck-of-the-draw than Ivory.

btw, I do consider them better than when it was MGL's, though.

[Kuciwalker]

I thought of this when I beat the Mesopotamia scenario just now. I was watching the leaderheads saying their little blurbs on the victory screen and suddenly Agamemnon says "Luck... it was all luck..." I found this amusing, because I'd gotten 2 SGL's as Sumeria which I used on ToA and the Lighthouse. (Ironically, I won by a Victory Point Victory, not a Wonder Victory - the seventh wonder gave me enough VP's to win.)

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
I get this mental picture of a French knight throwing a red flag and screaming "time out" at which point God comes jogging out of a cloud.

"Longbows are unbalancing and give the English too much of an advantage", says the French knight.

God reviews the play and concludes that the longbowmen had both feet in bounds. "The play stands!", says He.

The French continue to be slaughtered, which is of course, historically accurate gaming.

By God.

I was watching "Battlefield Detectives" on Discovery last night that presented evidence to suggest that the heroic English victory at Agincourt was almost certainly due to overcrowding on the French side that basically caused a "crowd disaster", as we see today in football stadiums and train statioins. In other words, many of the French squashed each other to death and brave King Henry V slaughtered the rest in cold blood while they were lying crushed.

Perhaps there should be limits to Civ3 stacks of doom....or a message might pop up saying "your swordsmen were slaughtered because there wasn't enough space for them to lift their swords"

[Harovan]

SGLs can be imbalancing, but they are so random, that you can't rely on it. In one game I (playing the agricultural Dutch) got a SGL when I discovered Writing in the mid-2000BC's. Instant Pyramids + agricultural + lots of rivers = Game over. But that happens only on rare occasions. You could get lucky in previous versions too, making a (M)GL with your very first elite archer.

[pauli]

if you find them too unbalancing...

...don't use them.

[Fatwreck]

I think this system is better than when MGLs could rush everything