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  • Only fairies have wings

    What, if any, strategic use do Helicopters and Paratroopers have? I really want to use them - because I want there to be a wider range of strategies than the simple "build your most powerful unit and hit people with it" - but I have never been able to bring myself to build any of them. They simply seem too weak.

    Take the Modern Paratrooper. You get this fellow at the same time as Modern Armor, and he costs almost as much. Yet, apart from the parachuting ability, he's identical to an Infantry - indeed, a shade weaker. Why on earth would I want to build him when I could have a Modern Armor, or at least a Mechanised Infantry?

    I simply cannot see the point of a unit that can land deep in enemy territory. It seems obvious to me that when you are invading the enemy, you need to build on what you already have - so you attack units or cities that are next to your borders, or, if invading a continent, you establish a beachhead and then seek to expand outwards from that. This technique means that your attacking units have hostile territory on at most three sides. But those Paratroopers, dropped into the heart of the enemy territory, are completely surrounded. What are they going to achieve that you couldn't do by conventional means, by continuing a land-based expansion from the territory you have already conquered? They're not powerful enough to attack anything, and they probably can't do any pillaging because they move only one space per turn and the enemy will have Infantry guarding any pillage-worthy tiles as it is. They can only sit there and, possibly, divert some of the enemy's forces into attacking them rather than going for your main invasion force. That doesn't seem to me to be a very good strategy, and I suspect the Paratroopers themselves would agree. Why have a Paratrooper somewhere being attacked by the enemy when you could have a Modern Armor in with your main force doing the attacking?

    The same with Helicopters. They can only carry infantry units. That means that the most powerful unit you can ferry with them is the TOW Infantry. But why go to all the trouble of building a helicopter to drop these guys off in order - at best - to sit on a mountain and fortify somewhere when you could be building more conventional attacking units?

    Has anyone worked out a good strategy for using these things, or are they essentially a nice idea with no practical purpose at all?

  • #2
    I think they're there so we can scratch our heads in amazement when the AI builds them and drops them off in our territory as MGL generating fodder for our MA!

    I built a chopper and a paratrooper once....dropped him off somewhere and then notified his family. I think the chopper came back and went rusty.
    So if you meet me have some courtesy, have some sympathy and some taste
    Use all your well-learned politesse, or I'll lay your soul to waste

    Re-Organisation of remaining C3C PBEMS

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    • #3
      Helicopters and TOW is a useful (in particular circumstances) way of getting a garrison unit into a cpatured city before rushing an airport. If you rebase a pre-loaded helicopter to the city and unload the units they can fortify. Possibly worthwhile if you expect an attempt to retake the city and don't want your MA or marines to be the ones attacked.

      Paratroopers of either variety? Why indeed?

      In the WWII in the Pacific scenario the Japanese start with paratroops but their usefulness is limited as they can't drop into undefended cities and capture them - they have to drop adjacent and the defending AI may have rushed a unit before your next turn so your paratrooper is stranded.
      Never give an AI an even break.

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      • #4
        Only use Ive ever made of paratroops in civ 3 is as a decoy to get the AI to send his units the wrong way, or for pillageing.

        They are nowhere near as useful as the paratroopers and helo's in civ2 and thats a shame.
        A proud member of the "Apolyton Story Writers Guild".There are many great stories at the Civ 3 stories forum, do yourself a favour and visit the forum. Lose yourself in one of many epic tales and be inspired to write yourself, as I was.

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        • #5
          paratroopers are very useful, mind you!


          Lets examine - they got a 'relative' strong defense and they got a zone of control.

          The point of a paratrooper (in this game) is to drop them behind enemy lines to CUT OFF re-supply routes to cities your trying to capture.

          Assume your trying to invade this one city - you either capture it or you dont, doesn't matter - What you do know is that your gonna get a counter attack. How do you weaken this counter attack and slow it down, or even stop it? How do you stop the city your trying to capture to resupply with strong units? Why with paratroopers of course!

          This is how you use them - drop them off at choke points (to block the entrence completely), or when the the land mass is wide and vast, drop them 1 space apart to create a barrier. If the terrain your paratroopers are on is insignificant to the AI, it will just pass on by and move to the city thats being attacked. But to get there, it must pass through the zone of control of your paratroopers - and i'm sure you know what that means. I've often successfully put 2 rings of paratroopers around a batch of cities that i wanted to take. Though those operations usually require 10-20 paratroopers. Now, if the AI decides to forget about hte cities and take on your paratroopers, well then you got a good chance of reducing the enemies numbers. While your probably gonna lose alot of paratroopers, all those enemy units that attacked your 'troopers, can't attack your invading force anymore.



          There is another usage, that i've used quite effectively. If i'm gonna be in a longer war, i drop a lot of paratroopers on productive cells of one single city to starve it to death. Though this is only a good idea if your trying to raze the city later on.


          But i do agree that paratroopes should have more ability. Thats why i've given them 2 movement points in my mod. While they can't move on the turn they jumped at, they can pillage and move after that. Making them much more useful!

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          • #6
            About the only use I have had for Para's is in a game recently. I had one (actually 2) civ on a 3 tile island since ancinet time. They kept teming up with my main rivial and I finally got sick of it.

            I did not want to make transports, so I just drop a few para's on them. They were still using spears.

            I had actually nuked them both once.

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            • #7
              [SIZE=1] they got a zone of control.
              Now that is interesting. I didn't know that, despite my obsessive manual-reading - could this be another thing that didn't make the manual?

              I don't actually know about Zone of Control in Civ3. Is it the same as in the original Civ? In that game, a unit was not allowed to move from a tile adjacent to a foreign unit into a tile adjacent to a foreign unit (whether or not the two foreign units were one and the same, whether or not they were from the same civ, and whether or not you were at peace or war with them). This meant that troops in the field could be very effective at blocking the enemy without having to occupy every tile.

              If Paratroopers work like that then it does indeed increase their strategic possibilities. This must be looked into.

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              • #8
                not quite. Zone of control is different in Civ3. Btw, the manual hasn't published a lot of things. Best thing to do is check the rules in the editor.

                Anyway, the way it works is that units with a zone of control can take free shots at passing units. However, for the pot shot to occur, the enemy unit must be WITHIN one of the 8 surrounding squares of the paratrooper, and move TO another square that is sourrounding the same unit. Simply a enemy unit moving from a distant square to a square next to the paratrooper (and same goes for moving away) does not give you the free shot.

                I've successfully gotten 2 free shots from one paratroopers at passing units by placing him in a nice location where units first moved from TOp right, to middle right (First shot), then from middle right to bottom right (second shot).

                Not every free shot gives you a hit, but the chance is quite high (not sure how high though). But if you got lots of paratroopers creating zones of controls that the enemy must pass through to defend the city, they will most likely all be at half strengh, or even lower when they arrive. Though I don't know about a 'free shot' killing passing units who only have one bar left; I have never experienced it.
                Last edited by MattPilot; January 19, 2004, 19:17.

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                • #9
                  They don't require Aluminum.
                  "...Every Right implies a certain Responsibility; Every Opportunity, an Obligation; Every Possession, a Duty." --J.D. Rockerfeller, Jr.

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                  • #10
                    SMAC Drop Troops could be used to capture cities, but the 'kill defenders with air power then throw in a drop garrison' tactic was overpowered, and I can see why (now that Bombers have lethal land bombard) they didn't want to repeat it.

                    OTOH, I agree that as they are their uses are very limited - mostly as already noted as reinforcements for a just-acquired city. If they could pillage after landing (even if they couldn't attack/take cities) they might be good resource-disconnecters and havin a few (even if they would invariably die the turn after landing) might force the opponent to garrison resources rather than leaving them open.

                    Historically IIRC paratroopers were used for hard-to-reach limited tactical objectives, and the ability to take out ungarrisoned inland radar towers/strategic/luxury resources would reasonably simulate that IMHO.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MattPilot

                      Anyway, the way it works is that units with a zone of control can take free shots at passing units. However, for the pot shot to occur, the enemy unit must be WITHIN one of the 8 surrounding squares of the paratrooper, and move TO another square that is sourrounding the same unit. Simply a enemy unit moving from a distant square to a square next to the paratrooper (and same goes for moving away) does not give you the free shot.
                      A little OT here, but what if a unit passed from a tile to another tile where two or more units of yours could fire on it with ZOC? Would each unit eligible get the shot, or does just one?
                      Consul.

                      Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt


                        A little OT here, but what if a unit passed from a tile to another tile where two or more units of yours could fire on it with ZOC? Would each unit eligible get the shot, or does just one?
                        Hard to tell. I have never seen this but the free shot doesn't always take effect. If the moving unit passes through the ZOC of another unit after taking a hit from the first one, it can be hit again AFAIK. Whether this works if the 2 ZOC units fire simultaneously I don't know.
                        Never give an AI an even break.

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                        • #13
                          For pillaging, build a couple Infantry, or Mech Infantry plus 3 or 4 Explorers. Transport to AI mountainous land far from the front, preferably near the AI's capital. Pillage away. Unlike Paratroopers, Explorers can move onto any terrain, pillage it and then move back to the Infantry stack all in one turn.

                          Sometimes the AI attacks your Infantry, which is good because it keeps those units away from the front. If the AI kills all your defenders, no biggie, all they get is a few lousy Explorers.

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                          • #14
                            MrWhereItsAt I am pretty sure I saw a calv shot a passing unit and then a tank army shot it as well.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by vmxa1
                              MrWhereItsAt I am pretty sure I saw a calv shot a passing unit and then a tank army shot it as well.
                              vmxa - was the second shot before the passing unit moved again, ie that the two ZOC shots happened after only ONE move of the enemy unit?
                              Consul.

                              Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

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