Wonders... your thoughts...

[Arrian]

I'd agree with that. The main reason I like Sun Tzu is for ease of mass upgrades later in the game, and for insta-barracks in captured towns. It's more about convenience than a significant strategic edge.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

Yeah it is nice to not have to move units around to upgrade them.
The good news is that you will have rails. Plus the barracks are not given in other lands, where they are really needed. If it was pangea, I may have to reconsider.

[Fatwreck]

I always play emperor, but I´m not really good at it so
I aways try to build the GL because otherwise I get to far behind in tech, when it expires I´m usually up to speed with the AI so I feel it´s really the right wonder for me... I don´t try to bulid the Pyramids that often because the AI would probably just beat me to it with their production bonus, am I beeing to paranoid here?

in the middle ages I really want Sistine´s and Bach´s, but it wont break my game in any way if I don´t get them...

in the industrial age I try to build, like everyone else, ToE and Hoover

the UN is the only thing you can bulid that has any real use, didn´t build it in my last game and I was very scared of losing to diplo until I finally launched my space ship

conclusion: I really like the GL, if I don´t get that it can get really ugly, I should probably try to avoid it in some games so that I can learn to live without it

[vmxa1]

The UN is a must for me as I will have very poor relations but then and surely lose any vote.

[ducki]

Just out of curiousity, if everyone is building the UN simply to avoid a vote, wouldn't it be easier to just disable Diplo Victory?

[MrMismatch]

Ancient Era
----------------
The Pyramids

Medieval Era
----------------
Sun Tzu's Art of War
Adam Smith's Trading Company
Magelan's Voyage
Leonardo's Workshop

Industrial Era
-----------------
Theory of Evolutiion
Hoover Dam


Modern Era
----------------
The Internet

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by ducki
Just out of curiousity, if everyone is building the UN simply to avoid a vote, wouldn't it be easier to just disable Diplo Victory?

I often do, but decided to give the AI some chance. Maybe it can sneak the UN in with a leader or something.

[Catt]

Originally posted by ducki
Just out of curiousity, if everyone is building the UN simply to avoid a vote, wouldn't it be easier to just disable Diplo Victory?

Then you make it easier on yourself -- without the risk of an AI building the UN and calling a vote, your freedom of action is significantly strengthened.

Catt

[Dominae]

I play Demigod/Deity now. I'm also usually playing for the quickest win.

The Pyramids are fantastic when you get them, but it's not easy, so most of the time I have to do without this gem. It's the only Ancient era Wonder I would consider shaping my strategy around (i.e. really boost one city in order to secure it, at the expense of growth/military/efficiency).

The only Medieval era Wonder really worth building is Leo's. The other ones I can do without until I've captured them with my cheaply-upgraded forces. In case some of you are not aware, Leo's is even better with Conquests (and that's saying a lot). Of course, this is different if I'm playing some sort of peaceful game, but that's rare.

In the Industrial era it's all about the Theory of Evolution. It's ridiculously powerful, and I must get it. Unfortunately, I almost always do.

If the game lasts into the Modern era, I'm probably going for a Spaceship win and so, like others, I need to secure the UN to be on the safe side. But then, of course, I typically build Apollo, since it takes too long to wait for the AI to do so.


Dominae

[:) Smiley]

The Apollo you gotta build for yourself anyway. The UN victory I disable, it is simply too lame and even if you do win the vote, there's no satisfaction. I'd rather have it that the UN gives you lots of diplomatic bonuses, and the diplomatic win be like the one in CTP2 where you make an alliance with every player.

[vmxa1]

Smiley the point is if you disable it you get a break as the AI cannot defeat you with a vote and you can ignore the whole thing. With it on, you may have to go for the UN instead of one of the other wonders and change your research path a bit.

Dom I posted the same thing in a thread about wonders. That Leo's is much more useful than it use to be with C3C upgrade cost. Not so strong as it was in Civ2, but getting there.

[TheArsenal]

I disable the diplomatic victory more times than not. I don’t particularly like the idea that there is a single wonder in the game that I must get or risk losing. And, like many here, watching 20 or 30 hours of game play go down the tubes due to what is basically (it seems to me anyway) a roll of the dice, just won’t do.

[vulture]

You don't necessarily have to get the UN to avoid losing by diplo - it depends on how well behaved you've been (or how efficient you've been at wiping out civs you've been at war with, and avoiding war with the rest), and whether you can organise a dogpile on your main competitor to try and force a stalemate. There are ways around the problem.

Admittedly, the easiest is to build the UN yourself, of course.

[Cort Haus]

In PTW I'd win over 90% of Monarch games with the UN victory without the slightly-cheap 'dogpile diplomacy' (signing up everyone possible in a last-minute Military Alliance) - by being, as vulture says, well-behaved. A fully-documented example of this is in the AU:Peacekeeper course. Ah, those were the days, when five or six thousand years of patient diplomacy and peace could win you the game.

Not any more. Good behaviour is less of an option in C3C's current resource-scarce configuration, where aggressive war is nearly mandatory, so this has an impact on the UN victory. The other effect of C3C on the UN is that the Killer AI - the lucky one with the resources - (Ivory is often enough to be starting with) eats up all the others so there's hardly anyone left to vote for you. The survivors are mostly candidates - on one of the criteria - so the chances of winning by UN vote are further diminished.

[ErikM]

Originally posted by Dominae
The Pyramids are (...) the only Ancient era Wonder I would consider shaping my strategy around.

The only Medieval era Wonder really worth building is Leo's.

Let me nominee a humble Colossus as a worthy alternative to Leo.

Colossus is one of the longest lasting ancient wonders. It works from whenever it is built until Flight, which is the very end of the Industrial era. Let's be very conservative (some games may not last into industrial era, for instance) and estimate that Colossus will provide its benefits for 100 game turns.

Colossus provides one extra commerce point (cp) per tile worked. By the time it's built the city that completes it probably will be size 5-6 and eventually will grow to size 12 at least. Let's figure out an average of 9 tiles worked during aforementioned 100 turns. That's a total of 900 cps accumulated during 100 turns. Write off one cp/turn for corruprion and we'll end up with 800 extra cps/100 turns.

Assume for simplicity that extra commerce from the Colossus city is diverted into treasury. [It is faster and cheaper to turn Colossus income into science beakers, but then there is an issue of relative value of gold/beakers. Since we want to compare Colossus versus Leo, it is easier to assume that Colossus is used exclusively to generate some extra cash].

Marketplace (50% extra tax) will turn these 800 cps into 1200 gold/100 turns. But marketplaces take time to research/build so let's figure out 50 turns without marketplace + 50 turns with marketplace. A total 1000gold/100 turn is a very conservative estimate of the extra income that can be gleaned from the Colossus city.

Now, Horseman/Knight upgrade costs 40g with Leo and 80g without [in Civ 1.29. I don't have Conquests so cannot make any comments]. If I build Colossus instead of Leo, I pay 40g extra per each upgrade. But I also have these 1000 extra gold, so if I have less than 25 horseman to upgrade, I will come up ahead with Colossus instead of Leo.

But... Leo costs 600 shields vs. 200 shields for Colossus. I could use these 400 extra shields to build 400/70=5-6 extra knights from scratch. So an army of 30 knights is actually cheaper to assemble with Colossus instead of Leo. And (imho) 30 knights is quite a respectable force.

Of course Leo can be used to upgrade other units as well. Say, spearmen to infantry. But if game lasts until infantry, then Colossus probably works for more than 100 turns and generates even more gold... Say, 50 turns in the industrial era at 12 tiles worked + marketplace + bank = (12*2)*50=another 1200g for infantry upgrades...

In other words, I think Colossus is very much underrated. Copernicus and Newton are strategy-dependent wonders since they are not any good for anything but generating extra science beakers. But Collossus generates commerce which can be put to good use whether you are aiming for a space race victory or for medieval conquest.

cheers,
-- ErikM