Wonders... your thoughts...

[Plotinus]

I'm surprised how little has been said regarding the Great Library... Maybe it's a sign of my inexperience, but I love this thing - primarily, it has to be said, for the mighty cultural rating. But the ability to spend *centuries* on 100% tax, perhaps all the way to gunpowder and beyond, is just awesome. It means you can spend vast amounts of money on buildings, or troops, or whatever, really - it's a *flexible* Wonder. The one thing it is no good for, ironically, is being scientifically advanced, because if you're going to use the thing it means you're going to be slightly behind the leaders in the tech race. But you get serious potential to do other things for that.

Some of the sting of this Wonder has been removed by the new inability to trade contacts until later in the game. This means that to get the full benefit of the Library you have to do some serious exploring and meet lots of other civilisations yourself, to maximise the number of free techs. Plus, of course, you sacrifice the potential of any Scientific Great Leaders you might have got if you had researched them first. It also means that the usefulness of this Wonder increases in direct proportion to the size of the map, or at least the number of civilisations.

[Arrian]

The GL is nice. But it's a 400 shield wonder in a time when 400 shields is a LOT. Typically one doesn't get both the Pyramids and the GL. Sometimes you do, and you're on your way to Ultimate Power. Otherwise, however, you must choose to go for one of them. Most of the time, I'll take the Pyramids.

-Arrian

[Artifex]

What do you all think of the Temple of Artemis for Non-Religious Civs?

[Rhothaerill]

I used to have to have the Great Library too, but the importance of it has rapidly declined for me. I find now that the only time I would build the GL is if I am far behind in tech pace. Through shrewd tech trading/purchasing I can usually keep nearly to the pace of the AI civs, and the city that would have been allocated to a wonder is instead building troops or commerce improvements to further my nation in other ways.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Artifex
What do you all think of the Temple of Artemis for Non-Religious Civs?

I would vote that "Most Dangerous Wonder", not to the AI, but to the player.

Just think of the pain that will occur when those temples disappear. Then again, I am a happiness freak, and don't like to risk having riots.

I'd build it as a failover, much like I used to use the Great Wall, if I had to. Or if I was just trouncing the AI and had an extra wonder city doing nothing.

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Artifex
What do you all think of the Temple of Artemis for Non-Religious Civs?

Honestly I have yet to build it in an epic game since the effects don't last that long and you wind up having to build the temples anyway once the wonder is outdated.

In the earlier Conquests however it is fairly useful. I'm currently playing Rise of Rome for the first time and the wonder is very useful with the lack of a lot of luxuries in the immediate area.

[Artifex]

I never read that the temples disappeared in the civilopedia. I guessed or theorized that existing ones might stay in the founded cities prior to becoming obsolete. Then new cities would no longer be built with a temple automatically.

Just a guess or a hope..since this is never explained in any way.

That would make the wonder too powerful I guess.

If all temples disappear with education then that makes this wonder incredibly weak.

[vmxa1]

ToA is not high on my list. At emperor or better Education comes right on the heels of this wonder getting build (it seems anyway).

Now you are faced with the lose of temples all over the place and many unhappy citizens.

[Colonel Mustard]

How had the Great Wall Wonder changed? I haven't built that since Civ2.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Colonel Mustard
How had the Great Wall Wonder changed? I haven't built that since Civ2.

Yes they fixed it. It now adds walls to all cities.

[Cerbykins]

ToA is actually not that painful when you lose it...I lost it in the middle of a republic war. But of course, I had lots of cathedrals up by then - and temples in big cities like that are MUCH cheaper. By then you have you border expansion, and the immediate culture leap you want to keep in the running. The major downside, apart from it's expiry, is that it costs TOO MUCH! (pray for early SGL )

Anyway, I insist - still - on Knights Templar. Granted it's not the backbone of my assault, but the Crusaders are useful for those tougher-to-bash cities and at the VERY LEAST form part of my anti-culture-flip garrison. Vmxa1 did say you need to have nearby opponents...so I guess it comes at no surprise I play 16-civ huge maps

Not that I'm saying it's the greatest wonder ever, or that you need break your back to get it - just that it's good to have on your side, like Sun Tzu.

What we MUSTN'T forget, is that wonders are a one-time deal. I had a bad habit in Civ 1 - addiction to wonders that became obsolete, and addiction to wonders that I normally made -mine-. So of course, rather than derive benefit out of them, I actually took pain when I DIDN'T get them/lost out in the race for them.

A kinda nice afternote. Learn to live without any wonders, if you can - treat them as re-inforcements
I suppose it goes withut saying really, but sometimes I get the impression some players are hooked on Sistine and the GL...begs the question, what happens if they don't get it?

[Aeson]

ToA is fun with a few Settler pumps going on larger maps. It's funny to surround each new AI city with 4 of your own.

ToA helps in claiming your continent too, as each city is much less likely to flip back because it starts with a Temple. Comes online just about when massive Sword upgrades do, and goes offline after you'd normally be finished with the conquests, so it's expiration isn't much of a problem militarily.

It's not very good for cultural victories though (except in the extremely large landmass games). Your Temples won't be able to double their culture as quickly.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Plotinus
I'm surprised how little has been said regarding the Great Library... Maybe it's a sign of my inexperience, but I love this thing - primarily, it has to be said, for the mighty cultural rating. But the ability to spend *centuries* on 100% tax, perhaps all the way to gunpowder and beyond, is just awesome. It means you can spend vast amounts of money on buildings, or troops, or whatever, really - it's a *flexible* Wonder. The one thing it is no good for, ironically, is being scientifically advanced, because if you're going to use the thing it means you're going to be slightly behind the leaders in the tech race. But you get serious potential to do other things for that.

The Great Library is absolutely fantastic if you're playing on a level (and with a starting position) where you have little hope of a significant tech lead. Under those conditions, the Great Library is essentially tons of free gold. Similarly, the Great Library can be of great value in a strategy that needs lots of gold for military upgrades around that time.

But if I have a chance to build a significant tech lead, I essentially always take it. One of the biggest factors is that I like to get as many of the three big early medieval wonders - Sun Tsu's, Sistine, and Leo's - as I can, and a tech lead puts me in a much stronger position to do that. Another is that if I'm the first one with universities, I feel like that gives me a significant advantage in maintaining a tech lead later on. A third is that techs can be traded for gold, luxuries, and other techs, all without giving up any gold of my own. And besides, I just like playing with a fast tech pace; I don't want my people to have to wait to learn new things.

For my usual playing style, the Knights Templar wonder tends to be interesting mostly just as something to add to my wonder collection. Since I almost never research Chivalry myself, I don't get an early start on it and the only way I have a prebuild going is if I can divert a city from something else. Thus, in a game where I have a nice tech lead, I may be most of the way through the medieval era by the time I could build the wonder. Since Steam Power is my first Industrial priority, that gives the wonder very little time to repay my investment before it becomes obsolete. (In Dominae's Chasqui Scout game, I think I just got two Crusaders out of the wonder before its obsolescence.)

Contrast that with the alternative strategy of building the Great Library and raking in gold for lots of horseman-to-knight upgrades. In such a strategy, the Knights Templar could have very considerable value, especially if a player would use a prebuild to get the Knights Templar just a few turns after Chivalry is researched. Clearly, the choice of playing style has a lot to do with how valuable some of the wonders are or aren't.

Nathan

[Artifex]

ToA would be worth it very early with an SGL. I wonder if it woudl compete with Pyramids at around 2000 BC or so (if your lucky to get an unltra early SGL).

I think it is the 2nd best ancient wonder behind Pyramids to rush with an SGL.

[eris]

Originally posted by Artifex
ToA would be worth it very early with an SGL. I wonder if it woudl compete with Pyramids at around 2000 BC or so (if your lucky to get an unltra early SGL).

I think it is the 2nd best ancient wonder behind Pyramids to rush with an SGL.

It is interesting to see the differing opinions that get formed about aspects of Civ. The ToA is one of those aspects. I have decided that it is NOT on my build list, even if I have a clear shot at it. I hate disappearing temples. Like many others, I am a happiness freak, as well as a culture glutton. The disppearance of those temples always seemed to happen at an iconvenient moment. So, I figure that if it is such a bad thing, let it happen to one of them, not me. However, I have had one or two incidents where their culture expansion was a nuisance. (You get used to little border towns not expanding their borders and plan accordingly, then oops, it is no longer working that way. Ah well, change in tactics....) Still, I don't want it.

To the original question: Pyramids is my favorite. Then any happiness wonders I can get. Sun Tzu's is a must and Leo's is nice. I have some fondness for Adam Smith's, but I cannot completely declare it cost effective. Still, there have been times when money was an issue and it relieved that pressure. ToE is a must have, and leads to Hoover Dam, which is very, very nice. You can get a nice steady supply of militay and really hurt someone if you fell like it.

But, as someone said, it is best NOT to plan on getting the wonders. I have been recently learning that and it has helped my overall game.