The Persians

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by vmxa1
....As to Immortals and Legions, I am fond of the Legions as they can defend and have a longer shelf life. Add in the Romans are military.

I like the Legionary, when correctly positioned and fortified they can be useful up to the Cavalry age. When you add in my mod (50% worker speed, Builds roads, Fortresses and Baricades) these little buggers become extremely powerful.

[gunkulator]

The Mounted Warrior is second behind the Immortal in my book because you always need more of them to take a city. To take advantage of their mobility, you often end up on grass or plains where they are vulnerable.

The +1 extra attack of the Immortal gives it about 2 to 1 odds against any ancient defender outside of a few UUs. Slightly less for fortifying units but still: There's no other point in the game where the attacker will have such a lopsided advantage.

[geniemalin]

Sipahi vs Muskets?

Berserks vs Pikemen?

but I agree that the Immortals have the longest and most effectively able-to-be-taken-advantage-of window.

[gunkulator]

Sipahi vs Muskets?

By the time they are available, Sipahi will usually be facing those fortified Muskets in Cities, not Towns so the 8 vs. 4 advantage is often reduced to just 8 vs. 7. The AI prizes Nationalism highly and will trade like mad to get it. You do get a reasonably sized window of Sipahi vs. Musket, but not as long as Immortal vs. Spearman and with not as good odds.

Berserks vs Pikemen?

Berserk is a 70 shield unit available at a time when it simply takes too long to build them in large quantity. Their awesomeness is reduced by their scarcity. The Beserk's paltry def=2 requires you to also build Pikes so that some stray group of Archers or Horsemen doesn't decimate your expensive stack. Amphibous stacks are also difficult to amass given the general all-around suckiness of the Galley. One lousy AI Galley can sink 170 shields worth of units. Berserks are good for surprise strikes deep in AI land, but that's about it.

[Zero]

Gallic Swords are now 40? Im not aware of the C3C balance changes.. i dont have it yet. but i was pretty sure they were 50.

Still. MWs are so much better IMO. Same rule as why ansars/keshik are better than knight (10 shield). And this is ancient age we're talking about so 10 shield matters more.

Immortals are almost everyone's favorite once they start playing civ seriously. But immortals can be easily countered with effective mobile army.

Playing either romans or Greece nulls the whole situation. And in fact, instead of having 50% increase odd (3:2), it becomes 33% (4:3).

70 shield in middle age is too expensive? Knight costs 70 as well IIRC. and musketmen too IIRC. 70 shield isnt too shabby for early guerilla/infantry level attack stat. In addition, its good that their defense is low because you dont want to waste 70 shield unit defending. I like the idea that theyre 1 def lower than pikemen so i can waste pikes instead of berserks. I hate when elite Knights die before vet pikes.

Siphai's adavantge is incomparable to immortals. Immortals have long shelf life, but their dominance ends after ancient age. Plus theyre 1move unit. Siphais are not just 2, but 3 move unit, retreats from battle. They both have 2:1 ratio and as you pointed out siphais suffer from opponents from having better equipped defense, but mobility makes up so much more. Plus if you beeline for MT you might catch opponent while theyre still using pikes.

Siphais last until you get tank. During the age where you're using art/inf, you can still choose to build few siphais for additional 2 dmg compared to infantries and far superior mobility (I like how my siphai reinforcement can rally much faster than infantries) and head the offense before you start using infantries that cant retreat.

[vmxa1]

I am not sure why anyone would talk about Immortals and Siphai as if they are on par anyway. I mean one is a very early ancient age unit and the other is the last unit of the middle age. So they are nearly two ages apart.

All calv are three move units. But I won't be building any when infantry are common. The little use they have can be handled by the few leftover ones, that are hopefully elite by then.

[Zero]

I did say they werent comparable.

I usually dont have few leftovers, I have alot.... so I rarely build any. (I want casualty to reduce number of cavs i have)

But If I entered industrial age with very little cavs, I would build them in the core cities. Theyre roughly the same cost as infs, but they have 3 moves, so they can get to the front much faster.

[vmxa1]

They are dead ended at that time and infantry are not. They will soon upgrade to the best defender in the game with two moves.

Three move with A/D of 6/3 can't be used for very many things unless you are playing against a backward Civ. The Cities and metros are safe from a few calv. They can be used to pillage a bit, capture a worker, if one is out and about, kill a cripple and such.

I probably won't have all that many calvs anyway, unless I am play Ottoman. I will have maybe two calv armies and a few others. But I will not crank out lots of them as I will wait for tanks at that point. I often do not get to MT until just before I finish the age. Sometimes not until I get it from the AI.

[jshelr]

I've moved up slightly to demigod level lately and am now enjoying that level a lot. At first, the Persians made a great civ to start exporing the demi level. I agree that the long shelf life of this cheap 4-attack unit which remains effective after pikes and even after muskets makes them the best for tech-extortion. Speed is good, but attack power may be more necessary at the demi level, IMO. The scientific trait is a big help on this level.

[Artifex]

"Gallic Swords are now 40? Im not aware of the C3C balance changes.. i dont have it yet. but i was pretty sure they were 50."


No Zero, Gallic Swords are now 40 as I stated. The cost was reduced for C3C. Thus making the Gallic Swords hands down the best UU in the game and best UU in the ancient age, no contest. This UU is just plain SCARY.

I loved them when they were 50 shields but now...wow...just wow.

[Daddy-O]

Thanks.