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  • I like C3C, but...

    ...I do have a few complaints. Now I'm not writing this for everyone to use as an excuse to jump down my throat because, as I said, I do like C3C.

    Some of the aesthetic things about C3C are gone as far as games that are made with the editor are concerened. The aerial view is gone, the palace is gone, and the space race menu is gone. Now these aren't necessary in order to play the game, but they did round out the game a little. They should have expounded on these features instead of eliminating them...hopefully Civ 4 will "fix" this.

    Oh, the UN wonder doesn't seem to do a darn thing either in C3C games made with the editor also...wonder why?

    Everything else has been done pretty good including how the AI reacts. Although there are still a few problems with it. For instance, if an AI civ already likes you and you do not involve yourself with that AI civ that eventually relations should drop to a neutral level and should not go below that neutral level unless you do something to tick that AI civ off, and the reverse should be true, if an AI civ already doesn't like you and you do not involve yourself with that AI civ that eventually relations should raise up to a neutral level. This isn't the case they usually always end up disliking you. Another thing, it's easy to tick off the AI, but difficult to get back onto there good side, and they hold grudges way to long.

    Now here is a little example of what happened in my last game...I was on good terms with Spain and recently ended a war with Portugal. Spain declared war on Portugal abouth 5 turns after my war and then 5 turns after that they asked for my help in fighting Portugal. As I was on good terms with Spain I agreed and helped them. Many turns later on during the game I asked Spain for mutual protection and they said "no way - we remembered what you did to Portugal" - Now I can see that reaction if I asked another AI civ for mutual protection, but I should not have gotten it from Spain.

    Basically what I am saying is that I hope Civ 4 will add back and add to some of the little things that made the game a little more fun and I hope they make the AI better than it is.
    Lord of the World ... You just don't know it yet!!!

  • #2
    The Spain-Portugal bit is understandable. You broke a deal. Them's the breaks.

    For the UN bit, you mean you can't win a diplomatic victory if you mod a single item and then play? Do you know where the bug thread is?
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    • #3


      I like C3C too, but...

      The epic game feels different... like the values attached to things has been tinkered with... at lot.

      I played the Rise of Rome 2x, didn't win either time, but had a real good time the 2nd time around.

      When I tried to play a random game things started out realy well - good start locations, quick expansion through exploration and warfare against weak opponents.

      Then the problems begin. I usually play as a Monarchy, but was never crippled by corruption like I am now. I get the Forbidden Palace built in a good location but I'm usually dead or dying before I can get the Capital moved. Never made it out of the middle ages... in either game. In PtW I was winning regulalry at Regent and considering trying Monarch level (again). Now, unless I learn what's new, I can't compete on Regent.

      I know that the upgrade costs have changed quite a bit; it's more expensive. What I want to know is, has the corruption model changed and if so, how? Has the number of units a Monarchy can support been reduced? Have the costs for early improvements been raised? I build a few barracks, maybe in 1/3 to 1/2 of my cities, and I put temples everywhere to unify my border and keep riots down. I build marketplaces in my core, uncorrupt cities. Trade agreements are hard to come by, and after the opening few moves, no one will trade tech with me. At after starting the game at 70% tech, I'm rapidly behind.

      I also notice that defenders don't seem to defend very well anymore. My early attcks succeeded too well, and once that easy civ is gone and my newly held, corrupt cities come under attack by a better opponent, I can't defend them (even with same era units). The units I do build loose more than I'm used to, and I can't even build them in numbers because I'm broke, my science output is at now only 50% and dropping like a stone.

      Basically, I find myself at #7 in production and #7 literacy, in a seven civ game. The units don't attack or defend in the same way (tactics are different too but that's fine, it's combat resolution I want to know about), and I'm stumped about what I need to change in order to compete.

      I haven't tried it, but a change in government to Feudalism or Republic doen't seem like the answer.

      Please don't say "try a game on chieftain." The learning curve probably isn't that deep. I just can't seem to find documentation about the new models involved.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Civ Old Timer


        Then the problems begin. I usually play as a Monarchy, but was never crippled by corruption like I am now. I get the Forbidden Palace built in a good location but I'm usually dead or dying before I can get the Capital moved. Never made it out of the middle ages... in either game. In PtW I was winning regulalry at Regent and considering trying Monarch level (again). Now, unless I learn what's new, I can't compete on Regent.
        No, the problem is not with you, but rather with a major corruption bug in C3C. It has to do with how the game ranks cities for corruption purposes, and makes FP's, in most cases, actually increase corruption throughout your empire. Firaxis is aware of this bug (as well as one in which gold per turn deals generate 2x as much gold as they're supposed to) and is developing a fix. Don't quote me on this, but I thought it was supposed to be out around Wednesday.

        Hope that helps.
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        • #5
          I concur - Until a patch is released that addresses the rampant corruption DO NOT build the Forbidden Palace - it will only increase your civilization's corruption rate.
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          • #6
            The gpt bug can be a big boost to the AI. If you are not trading much you will have less cash than they do and they can afford to research more and or buy structures and units. Add in the corruption bug and that can account for some the the trouble you are experiencing.

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            • #7
              The FP didn't increse corruption in my game, but that's because it's an archipelago game.
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              • #8
                I had a smallish civ going on a single, small continent, and the FP also didn't increase my corruption overall, but also wasn't much of a help either.

                Until I changed to Communism.. wow! Killed that idea quick.

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                • #9
                  Thanks guys.

                  It's nice to know it's not just me....!



                  The patch that's coming... is this a beta or the real thing? I hear rumours of a beta patch floating around that does *not* address the corruption problem.

                  Btw, if I fire up PTW, will that get around the problem for the time beiong?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Civ Old Timer
                    The patch that's coming... is this a beta or the real thing? I hear rumours of a beta patch floating around that does *not* address the corruption problem.
                    It's only a beta, but it will fix FP corruption.

                    Originally posted by Civ Old Timer
                    Btw, if I fire up PTW, will that get around the problem for the time beiong?
                    Yep.

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                    • #11
                      Well at least the patch will fix the corruption...I always managed to have a decent amount of money, but now it's hard to come by.

                      Now maybe it's just me, but war wearyness sets in awfully fast when you have a Democratic gov't...a lot faster than it used to. My civ went into anarchy for about 10 turns and when that was over I switched to a Republic because I wasn't done beating up the English. Still in order to keep the people happy I had to starve my cities for a lot longer than I ever had to before.

                      Oh, and ignore my comment about the UN...it seems to be working now, but it wasn't before and I didn't do anything to the game so who knows why it works now.
                      Lord of the World ... You just don't know it yet!!!

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                      • #12
                        I have only played one epic game right through. I could only get 8-10 worthwhile cities and the FP made things worse so I have given up on the epic game until the patch. Some of the scenarios are not badly affected so I have been sticking to them.

                        Upgrades are 50% more expensive so Leo's is even more important.

                        I didn't have a problem with WW in democracy, even though the Vikings attacked me and it took around 40 turns to wipe them out. I did have 5 luxs hooked up which makes a considerable difference. As far a defending units go I was playing the Dutch with Swiss Mercs. Nothing more to say on that point .

                        I haven't found any harder than PTW at monarch level, apart from the gpt and FP bugs. It is different but suits my play style more if anything. I do think the AI's are quicker to make alliances and stick to them better so getting everyone else allied against the civ you are at war with is more important than ever.
                        Never give an AI an even break.

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                        • #13
                          In my only game so far, the FP seems to work fairly well. I suspect it is because neither of my cores are big enough to get punished by the 'flawed' corruption model in c3c. Oh, I intentionally avoided 'ring city placement' around my capitol BTW.

                          This was on regent BTW, I'll try monarch next game(my preferred level from PTW)
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                          • #14
                            I've managed to deal with the game as it is. Can't fight my wars in demo, so I switch govs often, so Religious is a must.

                            Take advantage of the GPT bug, the AI will. An the AI has the same problemo with corruption as I do. I'm currently building the secret police for my 2nd FP so I can switch back to demo and KA.
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                            • #15
                              I find war weariness very tough. I can't compare to PTW as I really didn't play that game much. I'm comparing to plain ole civ3.

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