Emperor level needs a rethink.

[asleepathewheel]

Indeed, I'll have a go at that 4000BC save and see what I come up with.

[Jeem]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
Also, you've been beaten to every decent cultural wonder. Why not time some palace prebuilds to help?


What govt were you going to select? I picked Republic and man am I being crushed by the unit support costs. I see that marketplaces are being built. you might try to get those up before the switch to republic.

Every decent cultural wonder was already built before I had the tech to do it.

Marketplaces were already being built because under a Monarchy I could only support 50 units and I had 100...I only managed it for so long because I was in a GA. However, had I not built my army, I wouldn't have been able to take on the Aztecs and capture 6 of their main cities (including the GL and SoZ).

12-man archer squads don't work on huge maps - you need 30-40 at least. I was putting 5-6 Swordmen into the Aztec cities and it was taking a couple of turns for them to stop resisting, even though I had double thier culture.

I'm not sure if you use it, but you might try the luxury slider to help out, I prefer using it to entertainers-keep the food and shields coming in.

Rarely use it. Even in Civ1 and 2, I managed fine without resorting to luxuries. If I need all the production in a single city (for example I'm in a close contest for building a wonder), then I'll up the luxuries

[notyoueither]

I think that keeping your population working is critical. You spend 1gpt on that city, but you get food, shields, and more than 1cpt for the 1gpt cost. The trick is to make sure that multiple cities will benefit.

I live by the axiom population is power, but only if it is productive.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Jeem

Try downloading my latest save game and then tell me that with a straight face Catt. The GL got me around 15 techs. If I didn't capture it, I'd still be struggling at 40 turns towards construction and the Russians would be in the Industrial age. I'm not lying - it's there to see in the save game!

Jeem - I am taking issue with your blanket statements that "the GL is a must-have" or "militaristic approach is required." In some certain specific maps / set-ups, those statements might tend towards the true. But relying on your one presented game is not determinative of the principal issue I challenge - whether your broad statements are true about Emperor level (whether or not they are modified to apply only to Emperor on huge maps). One game does not a rule make.

Furthermore, taking this one game as an example and using your position vis-a-vis the Russians would be as likely to tell us as much about your play, or advantageous AI starts, or even how the Celts are as a civ, as it would about the difficulty level per se - maybe you didn't exploit early advantage in a solid way (and maybe you did - but again one game isn't determinative). Just because the Russians established a large tech and cultural lead over you doesn't mean that this is likely to occur in all, or even most, Emperor-level huge map games.

As I mentioned earlier Catt, I erred in assuming most players played the game on a huge map. My comments on Emperor level should probably be taken as meaning 'Emperor on a huge map'. Try it, and keep trying it - you'll soon see just how horrendous it is.

I don't like to play huge because it really slows down on my computer. And I'll freely admit that you have undoubtedly played more huge map games than I. But in the four or five huge map games I've played since PTW came out, all of them struck me as easier than a typical standard map. I'm not sure why exactly, but I suspect one main culprit is an enhanced human tech-trading ability when there are multiple civs avalable as tech purchasers. Establishing a tech lead on a huge map game has always struck me as either "game over" or nearly so.

Take a look at an AU game played on a huge map -- click here for AU 207 -- many players played it, some went a' warmongering and some played peacefully. My game was one of almost no aggression -- I didn't even build enough cities to put up an FP initially, and when I finally did take aggressive action it was only for two distant cities to put an end to the aggressive war started by others. My detailed AAR appears in the thread with a bunch of other great AARs as well as thoughts on huge map games -- check it out for an alternative view of "the GL is a must-have" and "militaristic expansion is required."

BTW - here's the 4000BC save :-

Good to post the 400 BC save I almost certainly won't play it since I'm too excited for the patch and a "fixed" Conquests game later this week and play-time is limited. But I will try and give it a shot if I can find the time at least up to contact with the other continent, just to see how the game develops compared to yours. Perhaps others will give it a shot too.

Catt

EDIT: Fixed link to direct to AAR instead of game download thread. [/b]End Edit[/b]

[Dominae]

Are you making gpt deals with the AI (I mean, you give something for their gpt)? With the gpt bug, an increase in the number of civs increase the amount of Gold in the game (dis)proportionately. So if you're letting the AIs mint Gold and you're not doing it yourself, I can see this as at least one good reason you're behind.


Dominae

[Jeem]

Catt - Agreed that statements like 'the GL is a must have' aren't particularly helpful, but you've got to admit that without it in this game I'd have been soundly crushed.

Of course it can be done in other ways - for example had I been seafaring or commercial I'd have started with alphabet and most probably got to philosophy first (getting me Literature and then the GL...oops!)

I cannot reiterate this enough - I erred at first in assuming most people played on huge maps. However, my comments ARE valid on Emperor level on huge maps. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that the uber-powerful Russians are indicative of what I normally get on Emperor/Huge, but it does happen quite a lot. The main reason for this is the Expansionist trait, but I don't want to go into that here.

BTW - it's quite possible that the Russians will not be so far ahead in the same game played by somebody else. That's expansionist (on huge maps) for you.

I also realise that conquests is pretty badly bugged. If you think the trading and FP bugs are bad on a normal map, try to consider what they must be like on a huge one!

There isn't much left to say. Perhaps Emperor level doesn't need a rethink, but Emperor level on a Huge map does. As I seem pretty rare in playing almost exclusively on huge maps, it's unlikely that anything will be done about it unfortunately.

[Theseus]

Hmmm...

Jeem, you are clearly a very experienced player, and a thoughtful and articulate person.

Some suggestions:

* Don;t make blanket statements.... ask *why* instead, as you started with.

* You are dealing with some expert players here, and please know that the 'poly Civ3 forums have a history and philosophy of mutual help... when some of the posters here tell you that ALL metagame strats are available at a given difficulty level (in this case Emperor), don;t shoot back that it doesn;t apply as you are playing Huge. It all applies, trust me.

* You MUST join and play the AU games!! You are too good not to!

Welcome aboard!!

[Jeem]

Originally posted by Dominae
Are you making gpt deals with the AI (I mean, you give something for their gpt)? With the gpt bug, an increase in the number of civs increase the amount of Gold in the game (dis)proportionately. So if you're letting the AIs mint Gold and you're not doing it yourself, I can see this as at least one good reason you're behind.


Dominae

I had no trades for absolutely ages, then I gave horses to the Aztecs after making peace. I figured that they weren't my main rival after seeing the Russians!

No money for anything. I never had any to give away. The whole reason I'm switching government is because I can't actually survive on a 90% tax rate under monarchy (because of my relatively big army, which was required to slap the Aztecs around). Talk about a catch 22!

[Jeem]

Originally posted by Theseus
Hmmm...

Jeem, you are clearly a very experienced player, and a thoughtful and articulate person.

Some suggestions:

* Don;t make blanket statements.... ask *why* instead, as you started with.

Sorry, that's just me. I'm not doing it through a desire to be antagonistical (although I can when I feel the need, as you no doubt have noticed by now...). I like this style of 'debate' as it often gets to the crunch points quickly, and attracts the attention of....

* You are dealing with some expert players here

Yes, I understand that. I have no doubt that many of the posters in this thread are far more accomplished players than I am. However, I never argue a point unless I'm convinced I'm right. I am also quite capable of admitting when I'm wrong.

BTW - I'd better admit that the AI probably doesn't get a combat bonus at Emperor level before I forget.

and please know that the 'poly Civ3 forums have a history and philosophy of mutual help... when some of the posters here tell you that ALL metagame strats are available at a given difficulty level (in this case Emperor), don;t shoot back that it doesn;t apply as you are playing Huge. It all applies, trust me.

Sure. My PoV is that I'm not like most players in that I've got a very definite expectation of 4X games. I am not however, attempting to change the game to suit me and me alone - I'd just like a bit of recognition that maybe, perhaps, there is something a bit wrong with Emperor level (on a huge map).

* You MUST join and play the AU games!! You are too good not to!

Welcome aboard!!

Thanks. I might just do that. BTW - if you check out my joining date you'll see that I've been on Apolyton for quite a while! Didn't post much originally, and even then it was only a few rants on SMAC - still the best 4X game ever created IMO (controversial?)

[Theseus]

And you are in fact Scottish, yes?

[Jeem]

Originally posted by Theseus
And you are in fact Scottish, yes?

Nah, that was just a lie.

OT - I'd like to see the Scots making a comeback. If we can have the Sumerians and Portuguese then I definately want us back in the fold!

We'd be Scientific/Religious with a 2-1-3 horseman 'Mounted Noble' special costing 30. The reason they're so fast is because they're so used to retreating from battlefields...

[vmxa1]

Jeem, I do not want to pile on here, but I have to disagree with most of your points.

GL is a good thing, but I rarely build it as it is too big of an investment.

I find that all TBS games are easier on the biggest maps.

Some where here I posted a game in response to a complaint that England could not be used to win and you could not keep up in research at EMP. In that game I had no wars in the first two ages and held the tech lead almost from the first day.

I would not choose the Celts to play on a huge map, but it is not impossible. If you are having trouble, try an exp civ. American is good as it is industrious. Use your scouts to pop huts very aggressively to get those techs and free settlers.

Culture is problematic at higher levels as you tend to not get many of the ancient wonders. Once that 1000 years has past, they will be kicking out lots of culture. If you do not capture a few, then you need lots of cities to offset that culture.

Eventually you can get some of the wonders after the ancient age to kick in culture and lots of cities with a 1000 year old temples. This is even more of a problem in C3C with all the additional ancient wonders.

You are correct that sometime an AI will get very huge on a far way land mass, but you do not have to take all of their cities to win and they will not be able to invade you.

I am not a fan of huge maps either, it just seems that the fun is gone after you stop your inital expansion. I look up at all the cities I am going to have to conquer and think of all the units I will have to move around and get depressed. The worse part is all of the rails you need to build, what a pain.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Catt


Yup - that's the main post (and a very important one) on probability with respect to huts, but there have been several others referring to hut probabilities and difficulty levels, if only obliquely. One prominent example is Soren's post in "The Best of the Best" thread available as a topped thread in the "Must Read" thread. Click HERE. It's about 10 posts down from the first. The same message appears elsewhere in other threads, but this is the one example within easy reach for me.

Catt

I read that thread and Soren mentions goodies would be level related, but it was never mentioned or explained again.
I have not seen anything that makes it clear what or how.
In fact there is not much that could be done, other than alter frequency of this or that outcome. IOW make settlers more or less likely for a given level. I don't know, it is not clear to me.

[Catt]

Originally posted by vmxa1


I read that thread and Soren mentions goodies would be level related, but it was never mentioned or explained again.
I have not seen anything that makes it clear what or how.
In fact there is not much that could be done, other than alter frequency of this or that outcome. IOW make settlers more or less likely for a given level. I don't know, it is not clear to me.

Someone, can't remember who, did some large tests and posted the results over at C3C. The search function is disabled, else it might be easy to find.

Since the publication of the test results, several Firaxians, (Soren & Mike B, at least) have mentioned it in passing here or at CFC -- I don't have anything definitive in terms of probability changes, but I'd submit that even the mention Soren made in the link above confirms that goody hut results vary according to difficulty level.

Catt

[Catt]

****** Spoiler – Game Details Follow ******

I hesitate to post this since it will appear that I am driven by less than pristine motives. Nonetheless, since I actually invested time in this, and given the delayed patch I actually went back and played it as far as I said I would earlier, I’ll share my impressions.

This really isn’t much different from any other huge map game I’ve played. This one is challenging for three reasons: (1) relatively poor terrain; (2) starting positions that greatly favor a continent-mate (in the absence of warfare); and (3) landmass shared with only 2 AI civs, whereas the other landmass(es) have the remainder within curragh contact (even for an AI). The key to success in this game for me (‘till now) was relentlessly suiciding galleys until contact could be made (and I sank between 15 and 20 galleys, maybe 1 curragh).

It’s about 550 AD in my game. I did not build the Great Library (by design, though I doubt I could have if I had wanted to); I did get to Philosophy first and took Code of Laws as my free tech, proceeding from there to Republic; I have not been at war yet – pure peace. I have a tech lead over all civs, except for the Azetcs – they have Astronomy (I don’t) and I have Music Theory (they don’t). I’ll get either Bach’s or Copernicus (I want Bach’s, obviously) for my first wonder. The Aztecs have pulled ahead because they just recently concluded their GA (triggered by wonders). They’ve been a wonder monster, building the Pyramids early (1000 BC), the Mausoleum of Mausollos (650 BC), the Statute of Zeus (190 AD) which triggered their GA, and then in fairly rapid order Hanging Gardens (210 AD), Temple of Artemis (230 AD), Knight’s Templar (350 AD), Sun Tzu’s (410 AD). I had the culture lead until the Aztec GA and the Temple of Artemis effects – there’s probably little chance to secure an empire-wide cultural win in my game unless I or someone else trims the Aztecs significantly – but that’s going to be true on any number of maps; I don’t think every map and every starting position should offer every choice of victory condition at the player’s discretion.

If I were to play the game out, I would beeline to Navigation which would allow me to trade outdated techs to some of the overseas civs for luxuries (between the Americans, Byzantines, Russians, and French, there are at least 3 excess luxuries available for which I can trade using techs – all I need is the ability to trade over oceans, and I must potentially gift MM to the Americans soon to allow a harbor build) – with resource trading available, I could further extend the tech lead by easing off the luxury slider (routinely running either 20% - 30%). If the Aztecs attacked me right now, I’d be hard pressed to turn them back and would take some losses. I have several core cities building Celtic swords and soon bombard units (after rushing universities) – in a few dozen turns I suspect my border would be finally secure. To guard against an Aztec surprise, I’ve maintained excellent relations with them and have, on multiple occasions, traded them my sole source of horses, which they have lacked. I haven’t had my GA yet; when ocean travel becomes widespread, I expect someone will foolishly land a longbowman on my shores and allow me to trigger my GA – that or the Vikings will foolishly attack and offer the same opportunity. My GA should be “game over;” absent a GA in the Middle Ages, the late Middle Ages and early Industrial should seal it. The turns are starting to bog down on my computer and I feel I’ve given it a fair shake to this point.

Sorry, but the posted save doesn’t do anything to convince me that huge maps are different, in terms of difficulty, from other map sizes – I haven’t played this one out, obviously, but I’ll still stick by my view that in general huge maps are easier on the human than standard maps. Maybe the game gets a lot different later (with only 8 Civs in the game, I have very little experience on which to rely), but so far, it has played out about how I imagined. I would have played the early game quite differently had I known it was an 8-civ huge map – I would have had a lot more scouts to pop huts. I’d say it is easy to get behind significantly in the tech race from this start (one long river for the taking – nothing more), especially sharing a landmass with a “quasi-expansionist” civ like the Aztecs, but it is still just a matter of securing a tech lead in one fashion or another. Once a lead is secured, there seems to be little additional challenge other than an incredibly determined, focused, and intelligent attack from the Aztecs (chances of that?); and even that eventuality should represent limited risk by the late Middle Ages. As I said, I don’t see how this start makes either the GL or early offensive warfare a requirement to win. An entirely peaceful win certainly seems within reach, although a culture win, in my game, would require some significant “anti-cultural” actions against the Aztecs.

Screenshots and saves upon request.

Catt