Emperor level needs a rethink.

[Gibsie]

Well I've seen lots of goody huts left alone by the AI, but if I move next to one, and there's an AI unit next to one as well, then they'll usually pop 'em... presumably they don't want to have to deal with the barbarians that inevitably appear when I pop them

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Gibsie
Well I've seen lots of goody huts left alone by the AI, but if I move next to one, and there's an AI unit next to one as well, then they'll usually pop 'em... presumably they don't want to have to deal with the barbarians that inevitably appear when I pop them

[wistful] It was not always thus [/wistful]

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Gibsie

Also, one afterthought for the goody-huts, vmxa1- is another prerequisite for generating barbarians that you must be a human player? I've had the AI take goody huts right next to me a huge number of times, but not once have I ever seen barbarians generated from the hut...

Nope. Here is how you can prove it to your satisfaction. Go to the editor and gen a map and enable debug.
Load the scenario up and watch it. You can see what the AI does and you will see them pop huts and barb camps.

Just a suggestion, but I would not do it on Demi or higher as it is so painful to watch the massive number of units they have from day 1.

Remember that expansionist civs get special treatment from huts.

[DrSpike]

Vmxa.........if you've watched them do they avoid huts on the higher levels they would have popped on lower ones, or am I just imagining it?

[Gibsie]

Ah yes, expansionists, that could be why I've never seen it...

[ducki]

onight I witnessed 3 Crusaders losing an average of 2 hit points each when attacking archers in the open.

With zero-range bombard, this doesn't seem that out of line at any level.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Vmxa.........if you've watched them do they avoid huts on the higher levels they would have popped on lower ones, or am I just imagining it?

I only watched one game at demi, so I am not certain, but they did not seem to be concerned. The AI is not shy about sending in units to die. It will send 1hp elite calv to attack an MA fully healed, without out a care.

In PTW and even more so at C3C, I would not pop a hut near a town with out a reliable defense. It is just too risky. Not like vanilla civ3, you could count on the barbs to attack the warrior. Now they could do anything.

[DrSpike]

My thoughts also. Thing is some of my demigod/deity starts have been silly. There are huts all over, but I wont pop them since I know they'll be barbs, who will likely annoy me immensely. But the AI doesn't seem to want to pop them either. Then as you build more cities and culture expands the huts are still there to be popped automatically and spawn annoying barbs.

[Theseus]

Jeem, I don't get it.

You're saying that Emperor on huge maps straitjackets the player into one style of play?

And that is?

Peaceful builder until you are forced to take military action?

Uh, it sounds to me like your style of play might be the straitjacket.

[Jeem]

Originally posted by Dominae


This is not really true. We played a couple of Huge map games in AU, and they ended up being rather easy for the human player.

The reason is that the human player can concentrate what he or she wants to do (i.e. adjust to different circumstances), while the AI always does the same thing. On big maps this means that the human player has enough room/time to build a large enough military, enough Culture improvements, or trade for a quick shot at the Spaceship (depending on the victory type you're interested in).

I usually switch off spaceships because it's a bit too easy to win that way.

In general, the smaller the map size and the higher the difficulty, the more challenging the game will be.

That's just not right. The higher the level and bigger the map, the stronger the AI gets. Their cities are simply better than yours, and they probably have many more of them.

The thing about Emperor is that the AI "attacks" you from various different angles, and you have to "defend" against all of them. There's no reason to get angry at the AI when it builds military units as you're trying for a Culture win. The AI is designed to make life difficult for you, as you increase the difficulty level.

That's not it. At emperor level (on a huge map at least), you can only really affect what is happening on your continent for a long time.

In my latest game, I was hell bent on dominating by culture. I choose the Celts and expanded and built temples/libraries as fast as I could. I slaughtered my population in order to rush build when I got the choice. Nothing mattered except for culture.

Unfortunately, I got so far behind in the tech race that I had to mobilise 40 Gallic Swordsmen and attack the Aztecs (who were at least twice and probably 3 times as strong as me) just so I could capture the GL. I only did that because I didn't even have mathematics and they were already building colosseums everywhere thereby making inroads into the culture lead I'd built.

The GL got me Polytheism, Monarchy, Construction, Mapmaking and The Republic from the other two nations I was sharing the continent with (Aztecs and the woeful Vikings). That could never have been achieved without the usual mobilise for all-out war.

Imagine my surprise when a Russian Caravel pops up just outside the borders soon after. They must have given my contact to the French and Babylonians, and from them I got contact with the Byzantines and Americans.

I go to the diplomacy screen with the Russians and what do I find? I'm in awe of their culture! After meeting everyone I get Fuedalism, Monotheism, Engineering, Chivalry, Gunpowder, Chemistry, Metallurgy, Theology, Astronomy, Banking, Navigation and Printing Press (because of the GL).

The Russians are in the industrial age, and if I hadn't captured the GL I still wouldn't even have mathematics. By all means check out the save and tell me exactly what I could have done in order to win that game through culture. I uploaded a previous save game on the 'more on agriculture' thread, so it should make a nice comparison.

Players have beat Emperor in almost every way imaginable: 100k Culture victory on every map size, One City Challenge, no military units, no city improvements, no trading, always war, etc. etc. The fact that you're having trouble beating it in the way that you want to is not a problem with the game itself, but rather with your expectations of the game vis a vis how it was designed to challenge you.

That's not it. Emperor level forces you into a certain way of doing things. The GL becomes a must have, and you will always end up opting for a militaristic game because you HAVE to in order to survive. I'm pretty sure I could win this current game on culture, but it would require me nuking the Russians out of the game in all probability. Winning through culture is generally only attainable when you are already in the position to choose your victory.

Other statements are being made that I doubt are backed up by all that much evidence or play experience. Like:


I feel the same way about Emperor that you do about Monarch. Does that mean all I do is warmonger? Far from it! Name one "valid tactic" you use that is invalidated by Emperor-level, and I'll show you a game where you're wrong.

Culture victory is a choice that should be able to be achieved without resorting to military. I'll show you a game where you can't - it's the save game I've added to this.

Certainly there are things that are less easy at Emperor (like getting a tech lead in teh Ancient era, or Culture flipping as an offensive tactic), but that's the whole point of higher difficulties. Yes, you can Archer-rush the AI on Deity, and sometimes it even works. But it works a lot less often as it would on Emperor or below. That's the way it's supposed to be.

Considering the recent moves by Firaxis to change the combat system, I'd say that archer rushes were not in their grand plan when the game was developed.

[Dominae]

Can I have your 4000BC save of the game you just posted? I've not looked at it yet because I want to try this for myself. Edit: Actually, come to think of it, my computer cannot handle a Huge map game. How about we start a new comparative game (Large size or smaller) on Emperor to see if Culture is truly a bad strategy.

Incidentally, just because you poprushed all the time to get cultural improvements up does not mean you deserve to be first in Culture. What it may indicate (among other things) is that poprushing is not such a great tactic on a massive scale.


Dominae

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Jeem
That's not it. Emperor level forces you into a certain way of doing things. The GL becomes a must have, and you will always end up opting for a militaristic game because you HAVE to in order to survive. I'm pretty sure I could win this current game on culture, but it would require me nuking the Russians out of the game in all probability. Winning through culture is generally only attainable when you are already in the position to choose your victory.

Culture victory is a choice that should be able to be achieved without resorting to military. I'll show you a game where you can't - it's the save game I've added to this.

Cultural victory on Emperor can be achieved without military, you just have to know win to pick your spots. Frankly I got tired of winning that way (accidentally, though there was conquest, much )and usually play with it turned off, not very rewarding to me. For every game that you show me where you can't, I can show you where you can.

Check out this save , its an OCC game, about 3/4 of the way to cultural victory on Emperor. Granted it was a tremendous opening, the one I used in another thread in here (which led me to try it ) but I've done it on worse (slightly worse )

I don't like to brag, so I won't post screenshots, but the game is probably my proudest Civ3 game yet, though again I had a tremendous start. The GPT bug hasn't hurt either

[Jeem]

Originally posted by Theseus
Jeem, I don't get it.

You're saying that Emperor on huge maps straitjackets the player into one style of play?

And that is?

Peaceful builder until you are forced to take military action?

Uh, it sounds to me like your style of play might be the straitjacket.

I don't have a 'style' of play, merely a preffered style of play. At monarch, I've played entire games where I've won without resorting to military action. Granted, those were few and far between and had other mitigating circumstances.

You cannot do that at Emperor level. It rewards aggression and nothing else. There might be the very odd occassion where you could eek out a space race (boring) victory by remaining pacifist all game - but that also requires special circumstances you don't find in the average game.

It seems to me that a lot of players are quite happy to give their thoughts on Emperor/Huge map without trying it for themselves. I've already stated that Emperor level on a normal map isn't that difficult - having played Emperor on a huge map in well over 200 games I think I know what I'm on about by now.

I'd love to hear your views on the Celt save game. That might not be indicative of the normal Emperor/Huge map game I have, but I see it more than I should. Pray tell me how you'd have played that game differently and kept the unstoppable Russkies at bay...

[DrSpike]

Wait a little while and comparison games will kick in...........I'm sure we can clear up of few things much better with actual examples. IMO Emperor just doesn't impose the straitjacket you suggest it does.

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Jeem
I've already stated that Emperor level on a normal map isn't that difficult - having played Emperor on a huge map in well over 200 games I think I know what I'm on about by now.

Wow, since it takes me over a week to finish on a Huge map there is no way I could have played that many Huge games.