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  • Emperor level needs a rethink.

    Now that Sid level has been added, Emperor level could use some tweaking. I prefer a builder game, and it's not easy.

    I always play Emperor because Monarch is no challenge and I'll always win. However, I find that Monarch gives a much more enjoyable game overall.

    The AI just gets too many bonuses at Emperor. I can live with the build bonus, but the combat bonuses are really annoying. Flipping cities is a pipe dream - the only good culture will do you is stopping your own cities from flipping and conquered cities from flipping back almost immediately. Considering how difficult a cultural victory is at Monarch level, I reckon it's near impossible at Emperor.

    The tech trading issue at this level seems to have been addressed slightly, but that's only because I'll tend to haul myself back into the tech race by going for Philosophy (instead of Polytheism which did the same thing in PTW). It's not really adding to the game enjoyment in any way. If I get to Philosophy first, I'll generally lead the tech race after a few swaps. If not, I'll generally be miles behind. The AI seems to ignore Literature altogether now also, making the GL too easy. I've had it every game so far, sometimes building it when I'm in the Medieaval era!

    On the flip side, the AI military seems to have got much more intense. I'm playing a game where the Carthaginians just are not stopping (see save game), even though I've bribed the Hittites (twice) and Mongols to join me. They just keep throwing out NM's and Swordsmen and I'm struggling to hold them back.

    Why? Because the NM is a very powerful unit normally - but with it costing less to build and the AI bonus to combat, I'm being slaughtered everywhere. Ditto the Hittites. I dunno how many 3-man chariots they've lost against NM's. NM's seem a bit broken at this level. Consider that unit vs a Jaggy Warrior now - 2-3-1 vs 1-1-2, at only double the cost? How many Jaggies would you need to take one of those out (considering experience gains)? 6-7? That does not compute Firaxis.

    Another beef is with culture. City flipping is no more than a pipe dream at this level. I've done it twice in about 200 games, and only because I had completely surrounded the enemy city with my own. Culture is useless as an offensive weapon - it's hard enough to win through culture at Monarch level but at Emperor it's practically impossible.

    For all that, I'll still probably win my current game. I'll somehow hold them off until I get Gunpowder and then I'll be unstoppable. The problem is, it's just not enjoyable. The pressure is too intense in the early game from all sides. Culture, military and science are all a major struggle.

    Now that Sid level has been added, I think that Emperor could be a little kinder to culture/builder type players. The AI doesn't need the combat or culture bonuses at this level - leave them to Deity and Sid. Emperor level should be fun to builder types as well as military types - but it's not.
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    Three words :- Increase your medication.

  • #2
    What AI bonus to combat?
    Seemingly Benign
    Download Watercolor Terrain - New Conquests Watercolor Terrain

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    • #3
      Originally posted by WarpStorm
      What AI bonus to combat?
      The AI gets a combat bonus at Emperor level. Of that I'm in no doubt.

      I've played tons of games at Monarch and I just don't see the 'unlikely' losses I get at Emperor, time after time. By my reckoning, it's as high as 25% to attack and defence. Maybe higher. I've had too many games for it to be just pure chance.

      Barbarians also get harder at Emperor level - for you at least. They don'y get any harder for the AI. The next time you play at Emperor, look out for the AI's warriors beating Barbs all the time, whereas you'll lose around 1/2.
      Three words :- Increase your medication.

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      • #4
        I just checked in the editor - There is an added difficulty for combat vs barbarians, but I saw no option for a bonus / difficulty for player vs AI combat
        ---- "What gunpowder did for war, Blake has done for the AI" - Diadem ----

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        • #5
          I am nearly 100% positive that combat is 'fair' at all difficulty levels.
          Seemingly Benign
          Download Watercolor Terrain - New Conquests Watercolor Terrain

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          • #6
            It cannot be pure chance. I remain convinced that the AI gets an attack and defence bonus at Emperor Level.

            Try some (about 10) warrior v warrior combats on Monarch, then try the same on Emperor. Even with the minimum 10% defence for terrain, you should win 4/6 on the attack. It's more like 2/8 at Emperor level, consistenly.

            Where I notice it most is when I'm defending. My warriors don't seem to be any better on defence than they are on attack (vs enemy warriors). It's not a 50-50 combat by any means.

            I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that the Barbarian level modifiers are also included for enemy races. There is no question that enemy units fare much better vs barbarians at Emperor level than yours do. A couple of games will show that to be the case.

            Or maybe I'm just cursed.
            Three words :- Increase your medication.

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            • #7
              You're right about Barbs. Otherwise you're wrong/cursed (the AI civs do not get combat bonuses/penalties at any difficulty level).
              Last edited by Dominae; December 12, 2003, 00:22.
              And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Dominae
                You're right about Barbs. Otherwise you're wrong/cursed (the AI civs do not get combat bonuses/penalties at any difficulty leve).
                In that case I'm cursed!

                I still don't believe that the AI doesn't get a combat bonus at Emperor level. I know it's not documented, but I bet it's hidden away in the code somewhere...

                Seriously - I've had so many games at both Monarch (the level I started at), and Emperor and it really seems that there is a bonus there. In my recent game, I bombarded an archer 4 times with a catapult and caused ONE damage. Same turn, I bombarded a NM in a city with 3 catapults and caused NO damage. Same turn, I bombarded an archer on a mountain with 3 catapults and caused NO damage. That's going well beyond bad luck surely?

                I've been losing cities to archers/NM's when I've been defending with phalanx behind walls. It seems to me that the close combats are weighted in favour of the AI somewhat. That could just be bad luck. Constant bad luck!

                Anyway, what about the other stuff - in particular the nonsense that is culture at Emperor level?
                Three words :- Increase your medication.

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                • #9
                  The AI does not benefit from any Culture bonuses/penalties at any diffculty level (as far as I know, maybe there is stuff "hidden" in the code!).

                  However, it does indirectly output better Culture at higher diffculties (and worse at lower difficulties) because of its production bonuses. On Emperor, the AIs can build Temples faster than they can on Monarch, which translates into a better Culture rating. This is probably the cause of what you've been experiencing.


                  Dominae
                  And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jeem
                    It cannot be pure chance. I remain convinced that the AI gets an attack and defence bonus at Emperor Level.

                    Or maybe I'm just cursed.
                    You are cursed. I have archer rushed through 9 or so AI cities in one game. I have taken size 7-12 AI cities defended by pikes and muskets with legions and ancient cav. I was surprised in all conditions how few losses I took.

                    I've also had a warrior sit on a mountain and chew through 4 AI attacking swords before going to his good night.

                    Combat can indeed make you think you are cursed. I have felt that way sometimes, but then I remind myself how lucky I have been from time to time.

                    I agree that Emperor is a bigger challange now. I think it has more to do with the gpt bug than anything else. Think about it. Give 7 or 11 civs a production advantage and allow them to research things faster. then allow them to print money by trading back and forth for techs in return for gpt. Makes it sort of hard to put a lock on the tech lead, doesn't it?

                    In my current game the Byzantines, who were reduced to 2 cities and a treasury of 0 when I finished with them, happened to get a new tech first. A little while later they have 2000 gold in the bank...
                    (\__/)
                    (='.'=)
                    (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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                    • #11
                      No combat bonus vs other AI or humans. Barbs bonus in combat are level related.

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                      • #12
                        In Original Civ III game , despiting what developers said about that , I am also convinced it is not only a matter of random events or bad luck the fact that fightings on higher levels leads into " strange " results.

                        TBH I have never made deep statistics,and for deep I mean let's say 250 tries on each levels, so my statement it is only a " feeling " but I am quite expert on these kind of feelings,beeing a pc strategical games since years.

                        Let's say this a golden rule :

                        Higher the level you play , higher the bad lack ratio you experience


                        Gunter

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jeem

                          Or maybe I'm just cursed.
                          Sorry for you Maybe it's just this game.
                          In my (first and only) Emperor game in C3C I did not experience any 'tweaking', except the units I lost because I'm no good at warfare

                          Why don't you join the thread 'Emperor games C3C' on the Strategy forum? It's fun and... fruitful.
                          The Mountain Sage of the Swiss Alps

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                          • #14
                            Lots of good comments here, but let me add a couple others.

                            First off, I'll reiterate MS's suggestion that you visit the Emperor Games thread on the Strategy forum. I think you'll find a lot there that's useful.

                            Second, you need to keep in mind that the higher the difficulty level, the bigger hole you start out in. When I made the jump to the Emp level, I felt very frustrated, just like you. In time, I learned how to enjoy and beat Emperor, and I now play most of my games at the Emp level. The key, IMO, to winning at the Emperor level is patience. Some things to understand:

                            1. You WILL NOT have a tech lead until, at the earliest, the middle of the Middle Ages. Don't expect it, hope for it, or even imagine it's possible. This is a big difference from Monarch, where you can, with smart play, at least be at tech parity by the end of the Ancient Era.

                            2. As a result, you will rarely have significantly superior military units. This requires you to more carefully plan your wars, rather than just beating up the AI until you get sick of killing him. I've often recommended that you identify 2-3 AI towns as your key goals. Maybe one is near a luxury you desire. Maybe one is at a particularly valuable spot. Whatever the criteria, select limited goals. Once you seize them, sue for peace. You'll likely get quite a bit of cash, as well as a tech or two. DON'T get greedy and think you can wipe out an AI in the ancient era. Such opportunities are very rare.

                            3. You need to give yourself time to overcome the early advantages the AI gets at the higher levels. A few extortionist wars against your neighbors, some smart researching/ tech trading and careful attention to your infrastructure can make you a real power in the mid to late middle ages.

                            Third, I think you are grossly overestimating the importance of culture in the game. If you are counting on superior culture to flip AI towns, forget about it. The odds are too small to make it a worthwhile strategy, IMO. Also remember that the production bonuses the AI gets mean that their cultural buildings will have been built earlier, meaning their overall culture will be higher at Emp than at Monarch.

                            Good luck.
                            They don't get no stranger.
                            Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
                            "We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail." George W. Bush

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tall Stranger
                              1. You WILL NOT have a tech lead until, at the earliest, the middle of the Middle Ages. Don't expect it, hope for it, or even imagine it's possible. This is a big difference from Monarch, where you can, with smart play, at least be at tech parity by the end of the Ancient Era.
                              I beg to differ.

                              If you can grab Philosophy and get Code of Laws for free, it is possible to trade your way to tech parity by the end of the Ancient Era. And yes I'm talking about playing on Emperor.
                              "Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
                              "I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
                              "Stuie is right...." - Guynemer

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