Emperor games C3C: how to improve your skills

[Enriquillo]

here's a shot from 270bc

[Enriquillo]

620AD, Enriquillo crowned king some years ago, we have our first island settlement up north thanks to a minor dispute with the Romans.

Waiting for Sun and Leo to get their act together so I can go to war the proper way

The Portuguese despot is now my vassal, I'll let him live for now, he might be of some use later.

Making +185 guilders a turn, it's good to be king

The Byzantine navy is a concern for the future, better to stay friends with the biatch for now.

[Enriquillo]

910AD, in a fews days my GL is going to become a national museum.
Our northern colony is a popular spot it seems, everybody wants their share.
I've been to war with Portugal, Rome and Byzantine so far.
Only the so called savages from the Americas have kept their peace.
Still on top though, trying to figure out which way I wanna win this
I don't put much faith in dutch tanks, but I think I just might just try 'em this time. The window of opportunity for knights is just too small. They'll have gunpowder soon enough. Same thing with cavalry and riflemen. Life is so much easier for a landlubber. You can just warmonger your way through with knights. Game over before tanks are even researched.
This time though, I wanna play through the latter part of the game, I don't get to do that often due to my notorious impatience. Comes from playing too much Age of Empires

[Enriquillo]

Here's my save from 1130AD, way past bedtime that was, so I was a bit clueless as to what was to be my grand strategy.

Some fun ideas would be appreciated. I might as well toy around with this a bit, since it's basically over by now.
JS Bach could be (and probably will be substituted with Smiths shack)

I'm starting to think Cuzco and Machu Picchu would be good targets, they got some nice wonders.
Byzantines are just a bit too strong for the moment, that would just turn into a bloody and prolonged battle, and with dozens of dromons out there it wouldn't be pretty.

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage

My next game (beginning of January) will be extreme archipelago and all seafaring civs (we as the Vikings?).

At first, it sounds like a cool game, but the AI has no clue on how to use curraghs and galleys for exploration, and almost no clue to properly use them for expansion. So you give yourself a huge advantage in such a game, IMHO. You will have contact with all of the other civs early and none of them will have contact with the others... You will expand to all of the good empty islands before they have a chance...

If you want a challenge, play a game with a civ that has the two most worthless traits. Something like Hittites with Commercial /Expansion..

[Enriquillo]

I tried attacking Inca as an experiment , needless to say that was a bit optimistic. My lines were too stretched and it was basically one big mistake. Not that I was losing the game or anything, but it wasn't really getting me anywhere closer to winning it either.

So I reloaded and decided, much against my nature, to make the switch to democracy and play a peaceful game for a bit (boring!).

I couldn't be bothered to manually control my workers so I put them all on SHIFT-A, which made for a pretty inefficient railway production as they all decided to start on the left and work towards the right, LOL.
This explains why I'm now about level with MS at 1700AD, even a bit behind in techs, as I'm almost at steel.
All 3 industrial wonders are mine and Pentagon and Wallsteet are being completed in 5 turns. Income is 1234, corruption 367 and science around 570. All income from cities, no deals or specialists, bastards stopped paying me for anything for some reason, seems noone's got any money except me

Anyway, I'm off to finish this game, report back to ya in an hour (or two, or three...)

[Cerbykins]

They never seem to have any cash near me, must be the low difficulty levels
Anyway - at least you'll get your tanks...

[Enriquillo]

I'm off to bed, my game is a real mess, shoulda stuck with what I know, warmongering/communism
Game would have been over by now.

Warweariness is really hurting me despite that wonder and about 6 luxuries.

I'm still more or less in control though, got mech infantry all over the place, as well as Flak, tanks, battleships etc.

Both mesos and byz declared war on me, so I got my hands full defending all those little islands. Luckily airports in the right spots keeps them safe from harm, fresh MI arrive every turn.

I'll get a screenie tomorrow maybe, unless I'm off to my newyears party early.
One worry, byz is at 87k culture, it'd be a bummer if they were to win culturally, can't let that happen, maybe a nuke or two on their capital would help

[Enriquillo]

couldn't resist, here's a quick screenie, beginning of turn just after researching computers. So I need to change quite a bit of what's being produced, but you can see how much warweariness hurts a democracy at war.

[Aqualung71]

Hmm, interesting game this. I fired it up last night and played for about 200 turns until about 900AD....I think out of all of you, my game probably resembled nbarclay's the most. I founded my capital in the same spot as he did.

I usually play continents/pangea on huge maps, so this was an interesting diversion for me....and boy was it different! Here is some of my gameplay and observations, for anyone who's still interested. Sorry in advance for rambling on a bit, but I hope you find it interesting:

1. At the outset I'll say that it seems to me that the Dutch on archipelago are almost unstoppable! The Agricultural trait gives a great growth bonus, while Seafaring allows you to send one puny curragh around the world to pretty much discover every other civ and pick up all those extra techs through trading. This is even easier on the smaller map sizes where you don't have so much "risky" ocean to traverse. I finally lost my Curragh after he had roamed the world for about 2,000 years! Needless to say he secured a well earned place in the Dutch Hall of National Heroes.

2. That start location was just magic. As others have noted, it gave us the ability to use Amsterdam as a settler factory to pump out enough settlers to control most of the arable land on our continent.

3. The nearby ivory also opened up the possibility of building Zeus, which I managed to do. In the ancient era, those ancient cavalry are virtually unstoppable – the only thing that could rival them would be if you were playing against the Celts with their Gallic Swordsmen (same stats as AC?). Even the powerful Iroquois MW is more vulnerable defensively. The added bonus of course – and this is a huge bonus – is that by spitting out the AC every few turns from the wonder, you virtually build no military at all, meaning you can concentrate on building your temples and libraries (and don’t forget the vital workers – I built about 12 of them very early in the game). After putting together a bunch of warriors to garrison my cities, then a nominal spearman and swordsman or two to make me feel better, I built no further military until I stopped playing at around 900AD. On top of all that, they start as veterans with 5 hit points and promote to 6 point elites! (I think you need to build Zeus in a city with barracks, or they start as 4 point regulars…I built my barracks after Zeus, and noticed that my first AC was only a regular). In my 2 “cleansing” wars with the Sumerians and the Portuguese, I think I lost a sum total of 2 AC. Their archers/enkidu warriors were simply outclassed. I would go so far as to say this was the single most important factor in my domination of the game.

4. Wonders – Pre-C3C I played Emperor level and had pretty much gotten used to the fact that I was never going to build a wonder before the mid-industrial age (if I was lucky!). This may possibly be due to my builder play style rather than aggressively taking over my neighbours (and probably my huge map preference with hordes of rivals), but I think all would acknowledge that wonder building at Emperor is tough. Personally I believe C3C Emperor is a little easier, which makes sense because of the extra difficulty levels, so I’m trying Demi-God now which seems to be about the same as Pre-C3C Emperor (but with a much tougher, smarter and relentless AI in war-mode). Again – don’t lose sleep over ancient and middle aged wonders at that level cos you’re never gonna get any!

But in this game, the wonders are eminently within your grasp. Using a few pre-builds in anticipation of getting the required techs is necessary, but that’s not too hard to plan. So, I managed to get Zeus fairly easily, then stole the Hanging Gardens with a pre-build then chimed in to buy Monarchy at just the right moment from the naïve AI. I was only mildly annoyed when some barbarian civ from a far-off land managed to beat me to Philosophy and then build the Mausoleum – IMHO this particular wonder isn’t much to shout about anyway.

I didn’t bother to try for the GL, since I planned on timing my inevitable war with the Sumerians (with whom I generally shared tech-parity, but who moved a couple ahead at the beginning of the Middle Ages….they must be scientific since they got Monotheism for free) to bring them to their knees and then extort whatever extra techs they had in exchange for an uneasy (and probably short-lived) peace. I have to agree with the core of regular posters here who don’t view the GL as attractively as they used to….particularly on the higher levels where it’s hard to get and it’s usefulness is very short-lived (and almost useless on archipelago unless, as with this game, you are seafaring). Artemis doesn’t impress me much either, since I’ve usually got temples up or under construction in my core cities by that time anyway.

My broader strategy here was to aim for the Knights Templar wonder from Chivalry, so I started a pre-build for this. Gilgamesh eventually proved to be quite stubborn and even though I had reduced him to only a couple of productive cities quite quickly, he refused to part with his techs for peace. I’ve noticed this with C3C – the AI is much less prepared to trade for peace, even (perhaps especially) when it appears annihilation is quickly approaching. While frustrating, I guess this is also smart and realistic. Anyway, when I took the last productive Sumerian city it came with the GL and the Oracle, so that gave me a couple of techs (again, my heroic Curragh must take some of the credit for that) and so I only had to extort the vital Chivalry….which allowed me to promptly switch my pre-build and finish KT one turn later. The furious but powerless Gilgamesh dutifully submitted to become my vassal servant. Now I had AC and Crusaders being produced for a zero shield cost – I was in heaven. In fact, it became clear fairly quickly that the Crusaders weren’t even necessary. They mostly sat garrisoned to watch for the odd spearman that the Romans inexplicably deposited periodically on my coastline on a suicide mission from across the seas (perhaps they were deporting convicts?). Even with their 5 attack, who’s going to use them compared to 3 attack “extra hit-point” AC with the ability to reach an enemy city in one turn and the all important “retreat and heal” ability?

Back to the wonders. I went for Sistine next in my second best city and got that fairly easily since I had stolen the tech lead and withheld Theology from my trading partners (enemies?) until it was too late to matter. Also started a pre-build on Leo (which I didn’t really care about and along with Sun Tzu is on the bottom of my Middle Ages wonder list….military upgrades become important later when you have the flexibility to generate plenty of cash for a few turns, and barracks have already been built in most cities by that time). This was quickly switched to the all-important Copernicus as soon as I got to Astronomy, which I also completed before anyone else had the tech.

While I was keeping my eye on Newton’s for the “science double-play”, I was far enough ahead in tech and growing quickly enough to divert to the Printing Press/Democracy/Free Artistry branch of the tree so I could secure JS Bach for the important happiness boost and Shakespeare for that colossal 8 culture point bonus (and the new “hospital” effect, which will be very helpful for building a factory then Universal Suffrage before I get to Sanitation, as long as I can keep the swarming peasants under control). At time of writing JS Bach is pretty much in the bag and Free Artistry for Shakespeare is only a few more turns away.

I’ve never been big on Smith’s or Magellan (a rather pragmatic attitude, since I usually don’t stand a chance in hell of getting them), but I’ll probably chase them just to put on the trophy shelf.

Looking forward, my wonder goals in the Industrial age will of course be US (to distract my plebs during the enevitable holocaust against the Byzantines), ToE (free techs, why not?) and Hoover (my all-time favourite wonder). After these are done, the few remaining wonders IMHO are just fillers and don’t affect gameplay too much.

5. An important point to mention here is that I was able to establish this position of relative dominance (is that a contradiction?) while remaining in Despotism. The captured GL gave me Republic, but I stayed in Despotism until somewhere around Education. Reason being, I was building Knights Templar (and possibly Sistine at the same time IIRC) and couldn’t afford the 8 turn Anarchy at that point. This is highly unusual for me, as I normally move into Republic as soon as I possibly can – again, this is because in the huge/pangea games I play at Emperor/Demi-God, I’m never building wonders, am usually 6 or 7 techs behind by the end of the Ancient Age and am normally extremely stretched for cash at this point, so I need the revenue and science boost desperately. I’ve now almost finished researching Democracy and have a big decision to make soon – stay in Republic (probably at least until mid-industrial after Hoover, or possibly for the rest of the game), or move into Democracy and again risk a potentially costly 8-turn hiatus from wonder building in the second half of the Middle Ages.

6. I built my FP with a MGL (courtesy of one of Gilgamesh’s inept archers) at the Haarlem location on Mountain Sage’s map (I have a feeling my city is called something else, but I forget). I would normally build an army with my first MGL for the HE and greater leader generation chance, but it really wasn't necessary and I wanted to experiment with the FP.

I can’t give you any specific numbers, but I did check it at the time and noticed it had only a slight beneficial effect on overall waste numbers (I’m playing post-patch – are you all too?). Total shield output hardly changed, IIRC.

I think one benefit the FP brings that has perhaps been overlooked in the rather heated debate about the “FP corruption bug”, is that while it may only improve your overall corruption levels marginally, it can be quite effective in redistributing corruption throughout your empire. This is important, because by the time the FP is available (earlier in this game, but usually later in large or huge map games) you have probably built a lot of the required happiness/science/finance/growth/military infrastructure in your core cities. Just make sure you’ve got your courthouses in place, and the increase in corruption in your Palace core cities will not hurt you too much….but the FP does give you another set of reasonably productive cities to build more infrastructure – this is important for culture, science and income. Having said that, I remain as confused as most people on what the actual effect of the FP is post-patch, so I think the jury is still out on exactly WHERE you should place it for maximum impact….although my gut feel is that it is very much dependent on circumstances (someone please just give me the answer – I’m not going to spend the time to try to understand the formulas and equations that some posters have developed).

7. As soon as I had mastered Literature, it was “Libraries, Libraries, Libraries”. Without these, research was going to fall way behind and that’s unacceptable. Everything under construction at that point (except wonders) was switched to Libraries (even Temples). Similarly, once I researched Education I switched all production to Universities, with Banks being the next obvious priority. This is quite an investment for most cities, but definitely worth it in the longer term if you want to maintain your tech lead and keep generating cash. Of course, the 3 point culture bonus that comes with the Uni is a real winner too.

8. Maybe it was the wonders I chose (or was forced) to avoid building, but I think it generally holds true that the GA wonder trigger is biased in favour of religious/scientific/militaristic civ’s. There isn’t too much there for agricultural/seafaring apart from a couple of the very early ones (I guess Colossus, Lighthouse and probably Pyramids), and the REXing phase is far too important in the early game to tie up your best production cities with wonder building. Couple that with the Dutch UU being defensive (Swiss Mercenary), and you start to wonder whether you’ll ever trigger a GA. In this case it was largely because I didn’t need to build much military thanks to my AC and embarrassingly redundant Crusaders. Having said that, I believe the Swiss Mercenary is a brilliant unit, and holds its own for the entire middle ages and even into the industrial ages, with the added bonus of being very cheap.

Anyway, by the time I had reduced Sumeria to one city on my continent and agreed to peace, then banished the Portuguese to a couple of cities on a small island off my South-East coast, I was in the mid-Middle Ages, no GA generated, and no prospect of any defensive wars being fought. Still, with a tech lead, wonders to be grabbed, and the strategically vital Steam Power/Industrialisation transformation looming in the not too distant future, the time was ripe to forge ahead with a GA. So I loaded a couple of Swiss Mercenaries onto my 2 new caravels along with a few of my trusty and seemingly invincible elite AC, and sailed for the Portuguese island. Much to the surprise of my foe, I just landed and sat my AC there while my SM went scouting around for someone to pick a fight with. And of course the AI obliged, sending a couple of longbowmen to challenge my SM, who by that time had fortified on a forest square - nice little defensive bonus. Well, my odds were pretty good and lo and behold, my “pikeman in a funny hat” somehow managed to use his unwieldy and decidedly “non-projectile” weapon to fend off the deadly arrows that were fired at him (I think he was also a kung-fu master), and survived long enough to generate the much sought after GA. This was the icing on the cake for my mid-middle ages, and gave me enough confidence to declare that my empire was in safe hands for the time being and I could go to bed.

9. The future – I have to admit to being rather complacent in this game, since I was dominant fairly early. Somehow the Byzantines seem to have slipped ahead of me in overall score, though I can’t see that continuing for long given my 20 turns of GA that have just begun, my stretching tech lead and my current dominance of wonder building. Although I will probably win just sitting on my own continent for the rest of eternity, I will probably go through the motions soon of assembling an appropriate invading force and fleet to raze the bigger Byzantine cities while at the same time securing those vital war-time luxuries with well placed and adequately defended towns. Now that Gunpowder is in worldwide distribution, this is going to be a lot harder than the Sumerian/Portuguese picnics, and I haven’t even bothered yet to check if there is any Saltpeter on my continent to build the necessary Cavalry for the invasion (yes, I’ve been VERY complacent!). Maybe those Crusaders may see some action after all – but if so, it’s sure gonna be bloody! Kind of fitting though – Crusaders pillaging Byzantium on their way to the Holy Land! I think that was the 3rd Crusade….or was it the 4th? But anyway, the strategy will be to find or trade for Saltpeter somehow, then build enough Cavalry for the invasion in the small window available to me before they get to Nationalism. If I can get that done then send over Riflemen reinforcements, the rest will be easy. Space Race victory predicted here - domination on archipelago will be just too painful to endure.


Overall, a fun and interesting game so far. I’d go so far as to say that this experience has altered my perception of Civ3 somewhat, in that this game has been a lot more “fun” to play than the slug-fests I am used to….which generally involve me living in fear for most of the game since I tend to operate a build strategy with a weak military until the early industrial age, with the resultant effect that I am constantly looking over my shoulder and waiting for the 100 cavalry "stack of doom" to appear on my doorstep – game over!

A question for Enriquillo if you’re reading this – you moved from Despotism into Monarchy and stayed there for quite some time. What’s your rationale there – is it simply the war weariness in republic you wanted to avoid? For me, monarchy and republic are so close together that I never see the value in monarchy.

Mountain Sage, thanks for starting this thread. It’s been good to compare play styles and strategies – thanks also to nbarclay, David Murray (the former West Indian wicketkeeper?) and Enriquillo. I would love to participate in your next one. I suggest we stay away from Seafaring (although I admit the Vikings would be interesting) and perhaps choose a different map style. I also like playing 5 billion years, wet and hot….gotta love those mountains and jungles – great for defensive strategy!

Sorry, haven’t got any screen shots, but I’ll try to attach my latest save for anyone who’s interested in looking. Would greatly appreciate any comments or advice.

Cheers!

[Inverse Icarus]

i think i'll take a crack at this one, as i need a new game and i never tried the dutch.

[vmxa1]

Thriller that was a heck of a post.

[Aqualung71]

vmxa1.....yeh, I was up most of last night playing the game, so I put it all down this morning rather than bit by bit. I'll admit it's a bit of an essay!

[Inverse Icarus]

although seafaring rocks on a coast, there isn't enough production here. moved W.

found the sumerians, rexed like crazy in their general direction.

my opening:

[Inverse Icarus]

i love beelining for philosophy. not only to i grab a free tech, writing and philosophy are worth a lot

i also got masonry, iron working, and 50 gold for philosophy.