Statue of Zeus

[pvzh]

It is known that AI does not value Ivory properly before SoZ is built. Instead of putting this code in why not change Ivory to Horses as requirement?

(1) AI procedure for trading stratigic resource already counts buildings that enable to be build bringing the price up. However, I am not sure how a wonder will be calculated: once or per every city. Latter could be very expensive
(2) Acnient cavalry is a horse riding unit. Is not it? I do not have conquest yet, but I doubt that they are riding ivory, i.e. elephant tusks.
(3) Horses are more "fairly" distributed than Ivory: luxury resources of the same type tend to cluster unlike stratigic ones.

[vmxa1]

My guess is that they want it to be unavailable to most civs.

[pauli]

i rather like the statue of zeus not requiring horses - it allows a horse deprived player to build a cavalry force without excessive wheeling and dealing.

i've only *just* obtained some horses via trade, and i'm in the late late late middle ages now. i'm actually doing what i can to avoid researching metallurgy for as long as possible atm. must have more ancient cavalry!

[Inverse Icarus]

they don't upgrade. they'll be useless soon enough.

[Snotty]

A free walking stockpile of shields is useless?

[vmxa1]

I like them even late in the game to move into recently capture towns and sit there. This frees units to move on to better task and cost me nothing.

[dexters]

Originally posted by pauli
i rather like the statue of zeus not requiring horses - it allows a horse deprived player to build a cavalry force without excessive wheeling and dealing.

i've only *just* obtained some horses via trade, and i'm in the late late late middle ages now. i'm actually doing what i can to avoid researching metallurgy for as long as possible atm. must have more ancient cavalry!

This is hard to judge. a double resource requirement would make it harder for the anal retentive human player to grab zeus for themselve since they usually will not know if they have horses until at least turn 30 to 50.

Also, the new resource distribution in C3C tends to balance out Zeus' increadible power by potentially having the human trade away key techs for horses or perhaps making it impossible to build it.

[Dominae]

Hate to break it to you guys, but the SoZ is no more powerful than Pyramids or the Temple of Artemis or the new Great Wall, and they all have no resource requirement. Securing a powerful Wonder should be a race as to which civ can acquire the most Shields (and the necessary tech), not which is lucky enough to start next to Ivory.

When you start next to Ivory, there is simply no decision whether or not you want the Statue of Zeus. It's more a matter of where and when (and that's a boring boring decision). What could potentially be an interesting Wonder in every game is now only interesting in those games the map generator bestows Ivory upon your starting location (less than once every eight games). Those of you who do not think this is such a big deal have surely reloaded until you've found that Ivory start just so that you could build the SoZ. Are you prepared to do that every game?


Dominae

[donZappo]

I don't like reloading my starts. Call me a sick-o, but I think it adds a lot to Civ to play from different challenging starting positions. If you have a real awful position, the pain is usually only short-lived anyways. I'm content to build some other powerful wonder if I don't have ivory. I guess the only difference is that if you do have ivory in your starting location you are basically guaranteed an ancient era wonder whereas this wouldn't always be the case.

-donZappo

[alva]

Might sound like a silly solution, but why not make ivory depleatable? Now you have it ( yeay )..., now you don't ( auch ), or vice versa of course
-

This frees units to move on to better task and cost me nothing.

Are you sure these units are free? As in no upkeep??? Better check again

[vmxa1]

No I have not check to see if there is any maint on them. I was referring to the fact that I did not spend any shields or time to get them and I could build something else in that city.

[dexters]

And since you can build them relatively early, there are the best mobile unit for quite sometime.

Dominae, RE: Zeus' power. I've seen a debug game where one AI which is behind in score wipe off another AI off the continent (2 AI evenly sharing a continent on a tiny map) with Zeus' cavalry. It's powerful in the sense that it allows for quick and powerful expansion. Certainly, pyramids, sun tzu are powerful too, but their effect on your military is indirect so the power is not felt.

Given the human advantage when it comes to strategy, warfare, and a variety of unit management issues, Zeus is probably more powerful than Pyramids or Sun Tzu when it is in effect. Zeus is like a bolt of lighting whereas the other wonders tend to accumulate benefits.

[notyoueither]

I like the possibility of one of the AI getting it and being a better oppo now or later. Screw the idea of restarting til I get ivory myself.

[SirOsis]

I just started a standard map random game where I'm playing the Hittites versus all the other Conquest civs. Portugal has built the Statue and I was hoping for horses so I could roll with some 3-man chariots but there are no horses anywhere nearby. Fortunately I have iron and have settled a river with flood plains. Those can pump out the food (esp with the 2 wheat there)!

The Incas and Portugal have been at war with me for quite awhile but I've finally built the Temple of Artemis. I want to see how my borders expand.

It also seems the AI doesn't go for Literature. Sure they want to trade for it but I don't want them to have it. I'm in the tech lead and have a SGL saved for the Knights Templar. If someone builds the Great Library I'll just take it.

While the Statue certainly would be considered heavily if I had ivory at game start that doesn't mean it should always be built. It would depend on your terrain and situation. Flexibility is key in Civ and if you always go for the Statue if you've got ivory then you are not looking at the whole picture you might need to win the game.

While I'm looking forward to building the Knights Tempar and rolling out the knights if something happens and I have to abandon it so be it. There's always another wonder I can rush. Since you can have more than 1 SGL it isn't as huge a concern to use them right away like it was in PTW.

[Swissy]

Re: Statue of Zeus

Originally posted by pvzh
It is known that AI does not value Ivory properly before SoZ is built. Instead of putting this code in why not change Ivory to Horses as requirement?

(1) AI procedure for trading stratigic resource already counts buildings that enable to be build bringing the price up. However, I am not sure how a wonder will be calculated: once or per every city. Latter could be very expensive
(2) Acnient cavalry is a horse riding unit. Is not it? I do not have conquest yet, but I doubt that they are riding ivory, i.e. elephant tusks.
(3) Horses are more "fairly" distributed than Ivory: luxury resources of the same type tend to cluster unlike stratigic ones.

The reason for ivory is the actual statue was made out of it. The reason it does not require horses is the statue draws the best ancient horsemen who pledge their skills to the glory of Zeus, and whoever owns the statue.