Attention, Pros: Has the AI improved?

[Jaybe]

SGL's happen rarely enough that they do not need to be nerfed further. It will be the RARE game that provides a rushed Pyramids in the very early game. (Sure, ANYTHING's possible, even in life ... but bloody unlikely!)

@Arrian: Don't believe it, then. Edit it, even.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Arrian
Have an SGL be capable of spurring a Golden Age in 1 city. Basically, pick one city to juice up for 20 turns. That oughtta give you a real good shot at a wonder, but it isn't nearly as strong as "Presto! Insta-Pyramids, 3000BC!"

The 'golden age in one city'-idea is actually quite old - the forum member (can't rememer the name) called it a 'silver age' and envisioned it as a third option to use vanilla Civ's/PTW's Great Leaders.

I can't believe I'm saying this.

I felt quite good after getting a Scientific Great Leader in my first Conquest game and rushing the Great Lighthouse without any prior warfare. This is builder's revenge.

[pauli]

builders revenge. that's absolutely perfect. and it makes me feel less guilty

i'm busy thinking of the implications of a tourist attraction going live in 2000bc - that's, what, 40 turns into the game? i don't remember.

and the above example of getting the statue of zeus at the extreme beginning of the game... sure, it's just about *never* gonna happen in an epic game (stupid ivory), but it seems to me it would be quite difficult to *lose* that game. by the time it's obsolete, you're cranking out enough money to bump tech spending a notch or two, and you should already have dozens and dozens of ancient cavalry.

perhaps sgls could simply do half the work left on any given wonder?

as for one city golden ages (or silver ages, or whatever), i actually thought that's how they functioned upon first reading about sgl's. i like it, but it would need to last longer. hmm... something like double total output for fifty turns. or maybe i'm just a daydreaming builder

i like the sound of cultural wonders, but it's a tad ambitious for firaxis, imo

[Thoth]

Arrian: Love the Golden Age for one city idea. :b It's a good incentive to do your own reasearch and give you a great shot (but no guarantee) of an ancient GW........or do you build some infrastructure, units and go conquering?. Or do you use your leader to get that extra leg up on tech?. It opens up strategic choices, whereas the current system is pretty much a no-brainer: +25% science for 20 turns, or an Ancient/Middle Ages Era Wonder. Not much choice there I'd say.

Jaybe: The problem isn't rarity, soon or later no matter how long the odds you're going to get an SGL early. This gives you an unbeatable edge: not only do you get your pick of Ancient era wonders but your wonder will be a maxed out tourist attraction before 1ad. This alone is huge. It means an extra 14 raw commerce in the city. In the game I got the early SGL's I was playing as the Chinese (I wanted to give Rider armies a try ). I researched the Wheel, (traded for Alphbet), Writing, Philosophy (Literature as freebie), Code of Laws and Republic all at max research. The wheel gave me an SGL (Pyramids 2900 BC, maxed out tourist attraction at 400 BC. The Pyramids are producing more raw commerce for me than the Colossus would have in PTW ).

The second SGL came with Code of Laws. I hemmed and hawwed for a few minutes, trying to decide if I wanted the Great Library or The Great Lighthouse. The game (if I bother to play it any further) will be an absolute thrashing of the AI. It just won't be much fun getting there. The game is already beat, not because I pulled off a strategic invasion or a diplomatic coup to isolate a stronger enemy, but because the RNG came up with a couple of long shots.


I had a lot more fun with the previous opening I'd played with the Byzantines. Started with the Philosophy beeline (ie same opening tech gambit). Failed to gain any SGLs, I was crowded in by the Chinese and the French right on top of me. I fought, struggled and microed like heck to fight my way out of that one (and even managed to mount a long range seaborne Drommon supported invasion of the Iroquois in the far North of my continent). If I play this one out (unlikely given the gpt and corruption bugs) it will be a lot more satisfying because I earned the win rather than having it handed to me by the whim of the RNG.

[Catt]

Too early for me to say whether the changes in C3C taken as a whole equate to an imporved or a degraded AI, especially playing games under the very serious corruption and gpt bugs.

Re SGL's: I've had a few so far but haven't yet enjoyed a very early one - I think my earliest came in time to rush Leo's for me. I am not convinced that they are any more imablancing than GLs under PTW was. Even a scientific civ has only a 1/20 chance of getting an SGL, and with only 21 techs in the ancient age, two of which you start with and probably 4 or 5 more which are known to other civs at the start, you actually have less of a chance at an SGL than you did at generating GLs under PTW with only one elite victory, let alone multiple elite victories (and even for non-militaristic civs it wasn't, IMHO, too tough to generate one or more elite units and then send them into battle for their 1/16 chance at a GL). I'd consider an early SGL no more problematic to game balance than an early GL from wacking an AI settler or from an early archer rush was under vanilla and PTW.

I am a bit more worried about the middle ages. Granted it is only a small sample size and we can't know the true impact of the bugs in the release version, but I am finding it a bit easier to secure and hold an early tech lead, even when eschewing any tech for gpt deals from the AI (i.e., researching everthing on one's own without the help of AI gpt and the hurt (to AIs) of gpt). If you can secure a tech lead by the end of the ancient age and then hold it effectively, you have secured all possible SGLs for yourself and denied the AI the same opportunity.

Catt

[vmxa1]

I am not worried much about ancient age SGL's either, I have yet to get one that early. It is the industrial age that you can have a death grip on the tech lead and be the only one likely to get one, especially if you are Scientfic (as I was). You get the cascade effect going and I got two very close together. You toss in the 6 or so MGL's I had and that is why I felt they were strong.

At that stage, I did not need them, as I had my third city with IW and my capitol that could crank out wonders faste than the AI.
They were not going to get any SGL's, so they were dead for wonders from then on.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Are these showing up late in the game?

How are you getting so far ahead in research?

I can't remember if I got one in the middle ages, but I think not. I think they came after that.

Same was as always, take over more land than anyone else, make good use of tiles and workers. Being Scientific, I got the cheap universities and made them and Libs a priority. Put as much into research as I could bare, often running a loss.

Liberal use of armies afforded my the opportunity to get more land. I had the Mayans near me and they had a lot desert tiles, so it made their life harsh. If was sad for them, the whole contient had one tile of marsh and a large patch of desert and they got most of it. The Inca's werer on their other side and they also squeezed them. In fact they were top dog for a lot time. They were down to 3 cities and still were in second place, must have had a ton of culture.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth

I'm disgruntled to see that the Carthaginians have NOT been toned down... if anything, they seem like a greater threat now.

Slightly OT, but why do you think that they have not been toned down? The industrious trait has been weakened, and I am not convinced that the value of the seafaring trait is an improvement over the commercial trait. In fact, I might be prepared to make the argument (how's that for a definitive view ) that the seafaring trait's propensity to start near coast, which offers less opportunity for shields, combined with a high-shield-cost early unit, means the trait switch has also resulted in a toning-down of the civ (especially in the hands of the AI which seems to have trouble exploiting the seafaring trait early by building curraghs).

Catt

[RobC]

Originally posted by Thoth
they're rare, I've only seen 3 so far. But 2 in one ancient era is a little too much.

IMHO, SGLs should be capped at a max of 1 per era to limit the effect of chance.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by RobC
IMHO, SGLs should be capped at a max of 1 per era to limit the effect of chance.

Forget that! I've yet to see one! When I get them, I want like 4 or 5 in a row just to make up for all the techs I've gotten first and had nothing to show for them!

[Conqueror]

Uh, dont complain about SGL's extreme powers. I havent myself seen one in my games, even tho i have played 4 C3C games to end and about 10 games to the end of Middle Ages.

I purposely played yesterday one game with quite easy difficulty (Monarch) and was in tech lead and first to research almost all techs after Anicent Ages -> Not a single SGL appeared. Even i used Byzantines who are Scientific !

Altough i got about 10 Military leaders in that game and had 6 or 7 armies running around, but not a single SGL

[eric2075]

It's kind of funny, but I don't remember anyone complaining about MGLs being too powerful when they could rush a wonder. I've gotten a couple SGLs early in the game and I've also had games where I researched many many techs first only to get my first SGL in the late Industrial era.

[Arrian]

I am not convinced that they are any more imablancing than GLs under PTW was.

They aren't. The issue is really the rushing of GW's with GLs of any kind, really.

I've gotten the Pyramids ridiculously early in PTW due to a MGL... often because I deliberately played for it. Early archer warfare, gunning for GLs/tribute, not conquest. That too was extremely powerful... but then again I *did* have to invest early production in barracks & archers.

Anyway, I'm not really complaining either way. I don't actually mind the idea of me getting a SGL in 3000bc and rushing the Pyramids with it. In SP at least.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

I think you can make a case that there is a difference in GL in PTW and SGL now. At levels of Monarch and down, I would say ther is no real distinction. At Emp it may be iffy after that it starts to change. The handicap will tend to assure the AI beating you to all tech for the first two ages, with a few exceptions.

This means you will be shut out from SGL for some time. In PTW you all have more or less the same chance and tactics to get a GL and the level makes only a minor difference. IOW you are not shut out.

[Arrian]

Good point, that.

-Arrian