WW II in the Pacific

[dexters]

I looked into the scenario. Tried bombing Pearl Habour, and felt like the Japanese side didn't have enough bombers to do the job. Or maybe I'm missing something.

When I was much younger and was in Junion high, one of my favorite strategy games on my Super Nintendo was P.T.O (Pacific Theatre of Operations) so this scenario is definately up my alley. And I love the music!

[G'Kar]

This is torture. I have to wait until the 10th, but as soon as Conquests arrives I'm going through the tutorials and then hello Pearl Harbour.

[Ckibler]

Originally posted by dexters
I looked into the scenario. Tried bombing Pearl Habour, and felt like the Japanese side didn't have enough bombers to do the job. Or maybe I'm missing something.

When I was much younger and was in Junion high, one of my favorite strategy games on my Super Nintendo was P.T.O (Pacific Theatre of Operations) so this scenario is definately up my alley. And I love the music!

At least in a single-player game, you *should* have enough bombers & fighters on the Japanese carriers positioned around Honolulu to put a pretty nice hurtin' to the ships stationed in Honolulu (AKA Pearl Harbor). Now, you can get the odd-ball attack when only one or two ships are sunk, or perhaps even none, but you can also get a devastating attack where, say, 6 might be sunk. On average, however, I found that usually 2-4 battlehips or cruisers will go "belly up" (or settle permanently on the harbor floor), and most, if not all the rest, will be red-lined. The new penalty for ships being caught "at anchor" is pretty severe.

Expect to lose, on average, about 2 planes to AA fire during that attack. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

Of course, as we all know, it all hinges on them funky Civdice.

[Ckibler]

Originally posted by Strollen
Charlie

What tricks did you try/ or are possible to simulate the Japanese surprise advantage during the early years of the war.

I was thinking maybe start the ships with one few hit points or something?

Well, while working on the WWII in the Pacific scenario, I was lucky enough to be able to get the programmer to help out by adding a few "tricks". Namely (and as you probably know by now), no "Allied" nation (i.e., U.S., Commonwealth, China or Dutch) can move any units on turn one. Thus, the Japanese fleet lurking around (the carriers of which are packed to the max with elite- & veteran-quality air units) can pounce on the U.S. fleet anchored in Pearl Harbor (Honolulu). That was one "trick" that was specially added; the editor "flag" to "Skip first turn" for selected countries.

I, and several others, also felt it appropriate that ships should be more vulnerable if caught by bombardment attack when "anchored" in a harbor (as evidenced several times already in WWII's "western" theatre, and the Japanese were paying special attention!). So, IIRC, a modifier was added to the combat formula to make ships in harbor more vulnerable. Also, the targeting formula was tweaked so that bombarders would not go for terrain improvements as much, but instead attempt to sink any in-range highly-vulnerable ship and air units. So, those were kind of "tricks" -- albeit none I did personally, just asked for.

Furthermore, the programmer also tinkered with the AI to "nudge" it to do realistic para-drops and amphibious assaults -- at least when given the necessary units within range of juicy targets. Oh yes, the AI was also adjusted so that better escorts would be provided for naval transport units, and so that the AI would tend to launch more-effective invasions.

"Tricks" that I did (and, of course, they are really not "tricks" at all), were to give the Japanese numerous veteran and elite starting units -- on land, sea and air. This is not unrealistic, as the Japanese military in 1941 was a finely-tuned combat machine due to all their experience fighting in China over the past several years. Conversely, the non-Chinese Allied units in many places (i.e., Philappines, Sumatra, Indonesia, Borneo, Guam, etc.) are few and of relatively poor quality. True "paper tigers". Again, these are not tricks per se, really just the historic situation (albeit abstractly represented as best I could).

Oh, and there are some pretty massive stacks of Japanese units (elite & vet armies, marines, paratroopers, infantry, armor, and air) chomping at the bit to be loosed upon these poor-quality allied units. Again, not a "trick", just the historical situation.

I'm happy to say that, at least in the WWII in the Pacific Conquest, all these improvements come together nicely to give a pretty impressive advantage to the Japanese early in the game.

Here's hoping everyone enjoys it!

[MattH]

Howabout some sceenies?

[Stuie]

Good stuff Charlie...

I'm actually looking forward to the Modern Age in the epic game for the first time...

[JamesJKirk]

I actually managed to lose this one As the US, I was going the slow and steady route, there was somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 turns left, I'd taken back most all the Pacific Islands, (Including Iwo Jima, which I was using to bomb the Japanese mainland and remove the roads from around Tokyo, but not including those which're along the Asian coast), the parts of the Philippines and Indonesia that were lost, Saigon, and I was preparing to launch my A-bomb supported invasion of the rest of Southeast Asia when I get the "You lose" popup. I wasn't paying attention to victory points! And the worst part is that Japan won w/ just over 40000, and I had about 39500. If only I'd invaded Hue earlier, rather than wait so I could get Hue and Bangkok in the same turn

But it was still fun

[Panag]

hi ,

its a good scen , but the map and number of civs that are in it could have been bigger , ......

those are the only minus points , as for the rest of the scen , a great plus

have a nice day

[dexters]

Originally posted by Ckibler

Furthermore, the programmer also tinkered with the AI to "nudge" it to do realistic para-drops and amphibious assaults -- at least when given the necessary units within range of juicy targets. Oh yes, the AI was also adjusted so that better escorts would be provided for naval transport units, and so that the AI would tend to launch more-effective invasions.

Ckibler, Missed your post here so I'm a bit late responding.

RE: amphibious assualts, what exactly was nudged? :P
One of the biggest problems with the navy pre-C3C was that the AI loves to send transports full of outdated units. Or if they not enough of a unit is sent.

Granted I haven't played enough of the game to judge how deep the changes go, I've observed at least in one instance, that the AI will hold back a naval landing until all its ships arrive and then land. I'm not sure it was a fluke or if that behavior is programmed.

I've also noticed that C3C AI will have its units in the initial landing party defend in a captured city instead of going into rambo style 1 man vs an army style attacks while leaving the injured units in the newly conquered city to (usually) be killed off and the city retaken. This has often made AI naval invasions pointless, since cities are captured and lost almost immediately. Can you confirm that what I'm observing was indeed a change or was it just another fluke? Or will Breakaway take credit for flukes?

I've also noticed the AI will send defender units out to cover for injured units instead of leaving them out to die. But I've only seen it once. Was there any changes that you know of in this aspect?

[Ckibler]

Originally posted by dexters

I've also noticed that C3C AI will have its units in the initial landing party defend in a captured city instead of going into rambo style 1 man vs an army style attacks while leaving the injured units in the newly conquered city to (usually) be killed off and the city retaken. This has often made AI naval invasions pointless, since cities are captured and lost almost immediately. Can you confirm that what I'm observing was indeed a change or was it just another fluke? Or will Breakaway take credit for flukes?

I've also noticed the AI will send defender units out to cover for injured units instead of leaving them out to die. But I've only seen it once. Was there any changes that you know of in this aspect?

Unfortunately, I can't really confirm (or deny) either of those observations. Both of those sound like "good things" to me (stuff I might do at times in a game, when the situation warrents). 'Could just be flukes, or it could be new behaviour. I don't know; also, I'm not as familiar as you with the old non-Conquests AI behaviour.

[dexters]

Thanks for the input. Check out the thread I just made about AI naval behaviours. Perhaps you can pass my observations along to the programmer who did the coding.

[Dis]

It is difficult starting out as the U.S. 50 turns almost doesn't seem like enough time to "build up". Because you only have 5 or 6 cities that has any amount of decent production.

And can anyone tell me where the victory point locations are? I'm still unsure how to "win" this scenario.

[kring]

The VP Locations (VPL's) are the Egyptian (or Washington Monument) Obelisks scattered around the map. You need to have a military unit stationed on it to get the points.

Several things that help out. Draft Citizens, something I rarely do in Epic Games. Wartime Mobilization is also helpful. If I am China, I set my research to between 0-10% to get the gold needed to cash rush. There isn't much tech I needed as China. For the other civs, going after the VPL's on the islands had me heading for Amphib Warfare and maybe Airborne Warfare. Other than that, I didn't need much in the way of techs for researching. One thing I did do was to switch most cities over to Workers on the first turn, hurry rush as many as I could afford. Use them to build Airfields in the areas that had good production and/or a lot of start units or would need reinforcements.

As the US, I typically would lose Aparri, Guam on the first turn. Wake Island and Davao, possibly Manila and Puerto Princess on the second turn.

China needs to draft as much as possible and reinforce the front areas ASAP. As does the Commonwealth. China may or may not lose a few front line cities on the first turn or two. The Commonwealth typically loses Hong Kong and Bhuket on turn one. I will post an example of a recent WWII game I played.

Another thing I found that I rarely do in regular games was bad odd attacks.

I also didn't build many ships or planes in this game. Mostly, Marines and Paratroopers for US and Commonwealth. MG Battalions and Lt Tanks for China.

Also, for Japan, attack Pearl Harbor with sea bombardment from the ships near Pearl. A turn or two, sometimes three, would wipe out most if not all of the US Pearl Fleet.

[joncnunn]

Um, without changing the rules, I think if you had bypassed the mainland of SE Asia and concentrated on Japan you would have had a better shot at winning.

The scoring example below is why most war games don't make first player to XXX points the winner. Perhaps Firaxis could put a patch that in addition, the player hiting that score must have 10% more points than their nearest rival?

Originally posted by JamesJKirk
I actually managed to lose this one As the US, I was going the slow and steady route, there was somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 turns left, I'd taken back most all the Pacific Islands, (Including Iwo Jima, which I was using to bomb the Japanese mainland and remove the roads from around Tokyo, but not including those which're along the Asian coast), the parts of the Philippines and Indonesia that were lost, Saigon, and I was preparing to launch my A-bomb supported invasion of the rest of Southeast Asia when I get the "You lose" popup. I wasn't paying attention to victory points! And the worst part is that Japan won w/ just over 40000, and I had about 39500. If only I'd invaded Hue earlier, rather than wait so I could get Hue and Bangkok in the same turn

But it was still fun

[publius]

I was actually disappointed at how few VPs you needed to win, esp as Japan. I actually won in I think 12 turns on regent, by that time I controlled Borneo and New Guinea and everything north of them, plus Wake, Midway, and Pearl (won before I could take Hilo). I managed to sink 3/4 US carriers without losing a single plane... couldn't find the Yorktown.