The Traits

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

For those of us who can't join the party today online, and can't afford to buy Conquests for the time being , can someone please list all the new traits?

I know the traits for the new civs, obviously. I want all the others... apparently the Celts and Iroquois are Agricultural now? Please, PLEASE list all the traits, one of you compassionate people, have mercy on us who must wait.

Starting techs would be nice too...

[OPD]

copied from CFC

Old Civs, new traits :

English commercial & seafaring
Aztecs : militaristic & agricultural
Iroquois : commercial & agricultural
Scandinavia : militaristic & seafaring
Celts : religious & agricultural
Carthage : industrious & seafaring
Spain : religious & seafaring

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

So, it would seem as though the only trait combinations that are repeated twice would be:

Persia, Ottomans - Scientific & Industrious

Zulu, Mongols - Expanionist & Militaristic

Greece, Korea - Scientific & Commercial

Can this be right? Some of the traits don't seem realistic at all! Sure hope the gameplay's good...

[Harovan]

3 is the minimum (31 civs, 28 possible trait combos). I hope there are not more duplicates.

[Arrian]

Iroquois : commercial & agricultural

Wow, changed both traits (fine by me, makes more sense this way).

Looks like the only Rel/Mil civ left is Japan. Interesting they left China alone... I would have figured them for a change.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
3 is the minimum (31 civs, 28 possible trait combos). I hope there are not more duplicates.

Well, I laid 'em all out in a spreadsheet, avoiding duplicates and putting in old civ trait values for the ones I haven't heard about (I saw the CFC post this morning) and that's what I got, those 3 combos.

I must say, I hope the gameplay is right. I thought Carthage was waaaaay too "hardcore" in PTW... this time around, the Mayas, a civilization that is now in the "dustbin of history," got a pretty hardcore trait combo... I hope this doesn't always make them a superpower...

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Arrian
Looks like the only Rel/Mil civ left is Japan. Interesting they left China alone... I would have figured them for a change.

-Arrian

Yeah, dangit! Agricultural and Industrious!

Sorry, I need to blow off a little steam here. Please note, all you reading this: I am NOT dissing Conquests. I haven't even played it; I assume that it is, as all reviews indicate, VERY, VERY GOOD. However, I must say that some of the traits make no damn sense whatsoever. Why, why, WHY are China and India not Agricultural? Lordy! Why does Carthage remain Industrious? Shouldn't one of the duplicates be Seafaring and Commercial - Carthage and England? Man oh man.

Many of the traits are spot on - the Vikings, for example. Many aren't spot-on, but still very good - the Iroquois and Celtic change, for example, isn't totally "historically accurate" but is still fairly so. How about the Seafaring and Agricultural Dutch, though? Agricultural? Where do they get that from? yarrrrgh... you'll definitely be seeing a mod from me, that's for sure... though I won't be a pisser and just play my mod... I want the solid advice of everyone here, so I'll keep the game as it is released, with patches of course.

Still! Mr. History is pissy.

ps: China = Industrious and Agricultural! Or Scientific! Make the damn persians Militaristic and Industrious if you must!

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Ok, I've calmed down now. Sorry about that, everyone. No more nasty comments from me.

Now... let's have the traits.

[mimi]

The Iroquois are WHAT??? That's just plain silly. An aboriginal commercial society is just silly. Especially the Iroquois who were more "war-like" than some other native tribes in NA. (Say, the Maliseet for example... ) But, still... you can't have a native peoples as commercial... they weren't commercial. Europeans brought the concept of money for money's sake.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Arrian
Looks like the only Rel/Mil civ left is Japan. Interesting they left China alone... I would have figured them for a change.

-Arrian

I guess the main reason for China being Ind/Mil is the Great Wall. Building this wonder definitely should trigger their Golden Age.

[Saint Marcus]

The Iroquois are WHAT??? That's just plain silly. An aboriginal commercial society is just silly. Especially the Iroquois who were more "war-like" than some other native tribes in NA. (Say, the Maliseet for example... ) But, still... you can't have a native peoples as commercial... they weren't commercial. Europeans brought the concept of money for money's sake.

they were quite commercial. they tried to dominate the fur trade...thus it seems that they indeed have a good commercial sense.

[mimi]

There was no fur trade until the Europeans arrived. Prior to that, fur was only used as needed, not really "commercially" traded (ie for profit only).

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by mimi
The Iroquois are WHAT??? That's just plain silly. An aboriginal commercial society is just silly. Especially the Iroquois who were more "war-like" than some other native tribes in NA. (Say, the Maliseet for example... ) But, still... you can't have a native peoples as commercial... they weren't commercial. Europeans brought the concept of money for money's sake.

Ah yes, but "commercial" in civ represents a whole sleiugh of things, including cohesiveness of society... hence, the "empire spanners" logically have commercial as one of their traits... the Iroquois might not have built a huge empire, but they were one of the only confederacies of tribes in North America... their federalism alone dictates the Commercial trait.

I agree with you, it's not perfectly, but it's much better than religious. Who can remember the Iroquois religious system?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by lockstep
I guess the main reason for China being Ind/Mil is the Great Wall. Building this wonder definitely should trigger their Golden Age.

...eh... the Chinese Golden Age is widely accredited to the Tang dynasty, thousands of years after the largely ineffective - though pretty - Great Wall was built.

Of course, like some of the other civs featured in the game, China's been around a long time and has had multiple "golden ages," so I guess it makes sense. But I hope China's growth priorities are changed, at least. In both vanilla Civ and PTW China was not a big settler, which is fairly ridiculous... consistently one of the largest civilizations of all time (population and territory-wise).

But, I digress.

[lockstep]

In earlier beta versions of Civ3, when there wasn't a peaceful method to trigger a Golden Age, China was Industrious and Scientific. Firaxis only changed it to Ind/Mil when they introduced the wonder GA trigger. I agree that Scientific and/or Agricultural would be adequate traits for China, but they wouldn't match to the Great Wall.