New "Ancient Empires" PBEM created

[SlowThinker]

Babylonian people is happy Hittites do care what Babylonians thinks about Hatta.

Originally posted by Straybow Persian claims are "completely illegal" and Babylon's aren't? By whose "law" is this judged?

Again: Only Persia claimed the unresolved/disputed areas and built forts and roads there. Babylon respected that the areas were unresolved and kept only skirmishers there.

It isn't that I support Persian claims, it is that I support Persian sovereignty
...
Now you wish to take the mountains from Persia.

Ah, this is again the well-known problem The Disputed Areas = Persia. The Mountains were a part of Assyria. Could you elucidate in what moment and by what act they became Persia? Or "by whose law is this judged"?
I do remember Persia and Babylon debated long time where to place a borderline, but I don't remember we would sign any final document.

In all these talks, Babylon insults Persia by presupposing a Persian invasion through the rivers

Again: why do you tolerate Persian insults? #3343, last paragraph

Spoils - an answer will come later, because we are busy now.

[SlowThinker]

bab 2390

This year was very fruitful for Babylonian merchants, and also for our trade partners.
Last Babylonian colony at Caspic (Ellipi) has been disbanded.
Babylon didn't acquire Engineering.
To Pharaoh:
Best route to Egypt for Egyptian Tramplers is to go west along The Equator. North is crowded by Babylonian units.
To Sinbad:
Long time our scientists, diplomats and sage men speculated how to deal with your fat geezer that entered The Red Zone on banks of Arrariver. Then we recollected Persia has a peculiar view to bribery, so we adapted to Persian habits. It was very expensive for us, but we are ready to sacrifice a lot for peace.
We also noticed Persia roaded a Mountain besides, also in The Disputed Areas (a red arrow). Could you explain how it corresponds to the Persian "defensive posture"? If you wanted really only to defend, it would be sufficient to put just a stack with a fortified IrInf there. A short road with a dead end directed south looks oddly...

[SlowThinker]

the save

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Straybow
Did the gods make Persia vassal to Babylon and forget to tell the rest of us?
...
You speak of a "fair" map, but you always start from the position gained after spoils talks instead of before, at the end of the war.

Babylon and Persia agreed on a clear system how to divide Spoils and on a simple (but not precise) rule how to define Borders: we agreed Spoils and Borders would be solved separately (also because Sinbad didn't reveal there were clear Pers-Ass borders, but this is not important now). We talked long time about spoils but finally we agreed on a settlement and we closed Spoils talks.
In the beginning of Border talks we agreed borders would be based on position of cities after The War (this was last point that we agreed on). (more in my post IMPORTANT) - I just edited it: a new question for Sinbad)

It looks you disagree with these agreements between Babylon and Persia and you want to apply your own principles how to set Borders and re-distribute spoils. Did the gods make Persia and Babylon vassals to Hittites and forget to tell the rest of us?

Babylon has already gained the spoils of Persia and Minoa in Mesopotamia.
...(picture)
Babylonian gains increase by half, while Persian gains decreased by half.

Even if we agreed you had a right to clear agreements between Persia and Babylon and to enforce your own rules, your picture is invalid. The picture suggests Nimrud and Arraphka were liberated by Persia (and so they were "Persian gains") and then Persia yielded them to Babylon, but this is not true. Both cities were liberated by ABF (Armies of Babylonian Front), but for tactical purposes we agreed empty cities would be occupied by soldiers in blue uniforms.
A similar idea was applied with Nineveh. Straybow, do you have really so bad memory?

Edit: also other areas on your map marked as 'gained/liberated by Persia' are incorrect.

[Straybow]

Bad memory? No. I remember which were blue and then released to Bab. Whatever the case, they are the subject of spoils agreement between Bab and Per. Likewise Nin was the subject of an auction, and terms were agreed by all parties.

You keep asking my input on the border talks. Then you get insulted when I give it.

Bottom line: if I were Persia I would not accept the Babylonian position on the border but I would not inflame the situation with roads and fortresses on the crest. If I were Babylon I would be more generous. Simple enough?

[SlowThinker]

I don't feel insulted. Without any irony Babylonians are happy you explained why you supported Persia.

if I were Persia I would not accept the Babylonian position on the border but I would not inflame the situation with roads and fortresses on the crest. If I were Babylon I would be more generous. Simple enough?

Does it mean you withdrew your statement "Disputed Areas = Persia"?

[Straybow]

[Edit] Good. I didn't mean anything as an insult. Our Babylonian translators aren't perfect.

I never said all disputed areas were rightfully Per, only that the crest is reasonably Per. Per still makes claims to the row of hills S of the crest, down to the river, and this I don't support.

[ Dang it, I researched the real name of the river, now I can't remember it.]

[Edit again] Found it: Diyala River

[Straybow]

[ Dang it, I meant to preview that, not post it.]

[Kull]

All kings should know that out in the middle of the desert, far from any cities or owned territories, Babylonian units continue to harrass and block an Egyptian skirmisher. Further evidence - as if any were needed - of the continued paranoia and aggression demonstrated by the Men in Green.

Babylon grows stronger and more aggressive with every passing day. Egypt sees it, Persia suffers under it, Hatte seems to waken ever so slowly, but the men in purple and orange slumber on.

[Peaster]

Long time our scientists, diplomats and sage men speculated how to deal with your fat geezer that entered The Red Zone on banks of Arrariver. Then we recollected Persia has a peculiar view to bribery, so we adapted to Persian habits. It was very expensive for us, but we are ready to sacrifice a lot for peace.

You really have a lot of nerve to bribe units in Persia, without warning, and claim it was done "for peace". And after all the BS you spread about Persia's explanation, you offer no explanation of your own action! Why did you feel you had to bribe this infantry unit? Why did you warn Persia against stacking units on that silly red line you drew over our border ? To make it easier for you to expel them and bribe them?

It is clear that you will act without warning and will warn without acting. Your words are meaningless. Persia has now learned to ignore old Snake Tongue, and will no longer politely put her troops at a disadvantage.

Babylon has not responded to Persia's repeated offers to avoid an arms race, despite clear messages in public and private that this is urgent. If we receive no very clear and public answer before starting our turn, we will probably begin Cohorts.

[Straybow]

Possible F11?

I just noticed that workers in two Hittite cities moved in the Egp save. In the Bab save they were still where I left them in the Hittite save. One city will drop out of WLTStraybow.

I would think F11 would stir up all the cities but what else might do that? All players should inspect their cities carefully.

If I can MP and reset those workers a replay is not needed, if only my cities were affected.

[Peaster]

My workers have also moved. I tried to "repair" it with civ2dip, but that didn't work.

[SlowThinker]

to Sinbad

Originally posted by Sinbad
You really have a lot of nerve to bribe units in Persia, without warning, and claim it was done "for peace". And after all the BS you spread about Persia's explanation, you offer no explanation of your own action! Why did you feel you had to bribe this infantry unit? Why did you warn Persia against stacking units on that silly red line you drew over our border ? To make it easier for you to expel them and bribe them?

You have really a lot of nerve to state repeatedly "The Disputed Areas = Persia".

We warned very clearly in our "Red Zone" warning: the warning was not only about stacks.
After you bribed our geezer (skirm):
* We asked your Fat Geezer (IrInf) was packed in a barter. In that case we would return him to Persia.
* We asked three times what the Persian bribery of a Babylonian geezer stands for and if it indicates a new Persian foreign policy. Our questions were ignored.
* So we adapted to Persian behaviours

Babylon has not responded to Persia's repeated offers to avoid an arms race, despite clear messages in public and private that this is urgent. If we receive no very clear and public answer before starting our turn, we will probably begin Cohorts.

I don't see what Cohorts have common with an arms race. Now Persia can have her private "arms race" and Babylon will never know about it.
We responded very clearly: we got your private message with some unclear iniciative about Cohorts, and in our "less important" post we answered we didn't want to talk about deals with you privately. So we expected you would move here.
Babylon can sign some short-time agreement about delaying Cohorts+Geometry (the agreement might be repeated). With the current Persian politics any long-time deal seems not to be likely.

[Peaster]

Re: to Sinbad

AFAIK I must wait for a new Egyptian save before playing 2390BC.

Originally posted by SlowThinker
We asked your Fat Geezer (IrInf) was packed in a barter. In that case we would return him to Persia.

We ask that you pack your army into a barter, and we will return it to you. Does that sound reasonable to you ?

BTW - A "geezer" is usually an old fellow who doesn't move about much. The term does not fit the Persian infantry.

* We asked three times what the Persian bribery of a Babylonian geezer stands for and if it indicates a new Persian foreign policy. Our questions were ignored.

On the contrary, our answers were ignored.

Persia impatiently awaits an answer from Babylon - Why did you bribe the Persian infantry? How was that "for peace"?

So we adapted to Persian behaviours

I don't see what Cohorts have common with an arms race. Now Persia can have her private "arms race" and Babylon will never know about it.

I see more differences than similarities between Bab behavior and Persian, and do not want to be compared with you.

I don't see what you don't see about Cohorts - the tech leads to Legion Tactics and L4s. I explained the Persian view (and the Hittite view, I think) of L4s, but you did not respond. IIRC you agreed that L4s would make current units obsolete, so a "private arms race" now does not make much sense.

But this is all opinion. If you don't agree, just say so, and I will move on to Cohorts. Otherwise, here's my proposal for a short term PB tech deal. You can suggest changes, of course, but the offer expires when Persia begins her 2390BC turn. We do not have the time or patience for complicated legalistic wrangling. Also, if you start calling my offer a "threat" or a "clever trick" etc, just forget it.

1) P+B agree not to complete research on Cohorts or Geometry during their next 5 turns. It is OK to start on either tech. [Note to readers: The Babs have been researching NONE for quite a while, and can switch to any tech at any time].

2) No deals with other Kings to get Cohorts and/or Legion Tactics and/or Geom thru a barter in this period. The deal is off if a 3rd King researches Cohorts during this period. If any King intends to get Cohorts soon, pls let us know now.

3) The deal is off in case of a PB war - our level of trust is already very low, and a war would destroy what little is left.

PS - Persia will send Eng to the Babs again in 2390, as agreed, but this is the last chance to accept.

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Sinbad
3) The deal is off in case of a PB war

What is a 'PB war'?

Persia will send Eng to the Babs again in 2390, as agreed, but this is the last chance to accept.

Do you mean Persia is willing to send Engineering in 2390 but not in 2380 or later? It will make any agreement about delay of SuperLegs impossible. Babylon wants to accept Engineering only just before she will definitely pursue Cohorts.