New "Ancient Empires" PBEM created

[Kull]

Confirmed Cheating Incident

Full Disclosure: The news of ST's wonder completion (and the promise of 4 more to come) really set me back. I know from previous single-play that the Babs usually don't generate a lot of shields in their cities, and it takes a looooong time to get enough together for a wonder. Also being aware of ST's publicly posted policy of maintaining tiny cities, it just seemed inconceivable that such a thing could have occurred "normally".

Public accusations of cheating are serious things, and I've seen it ruin PBEMs, so I decided instead to examine his game myself (oh oh) to check things out. Sure enough, there was evidence of unusual activity, so I PMed him privately and all-but accused him of cheating. Slow Thinker was quite affronted and claimed that there were legal explanations for everything. He in turn accused me of cheating (because I looked at his game file - which is true) ad requested that an outside party investigate.

Darius871 did just that, and confirmed that Slow Thinker is an extremely savvy player AND completely innocent.

So.......I have met the cheater and he is me!

The exact magnitude of the cheating is as follows: I downloaded several of his games and those from just before his turn (going back to 3060 BC). I then opened them as the Bab player and checked build queues in the cities. Obviously I could also see his map - although that wasn't the point. In addition, he sent me an email with a text attachment marked "not for Kull", but in my certainty of his guilt and the eagerness to resolve this quickly, I opened it and attached the text to the email I sent to Darius871 (in limited defense, one can't add attachments to Apolyton emails or PMs, and I simply wanted to hasten the process, and yes, I could have waited a little longer and gotten Darius' private email address). One can't open a text message and not read it, so I thereby also gained a certain knowledge of his diplomatic undertakings. So there it is.

At this point, there are a few options. First and foremost, I've definitely learned my lesson, and will ALWAYS request private outside services in the future if things don't sound "right". As for this PBEM, I will resign, should ANY of the other players so desire. Not a majority - a single player who's uncomfortable with my presence is all it takes. That's not negotiable. As for Slowthinker, I can only say that I'm most sincerely sorry for doubting your integrity, and ask your forgiveness. Should I remain in the game, the private offers of recompense still stand.

My apologies to everyone for disrupting a pleasant game in such a sordid fashion.

[La Fayette]

Kull,

As far as I am concerned, I think you did your best, and I would be very happy if you go on playing.

I suppose that anyone of us has been surprised when reading ST's post telling about the 5 wonders (even if I have probably been less surprised than many others because I have done research with him and played with him).

You are the author of the scenario, aren't you ? I can understand your concern (and we can all gang against ST, later on, if needed ).

[germanos]

Uhmmm... I have been in the exact same position of you Kull, not too long ago...


i can only return the favor my game-mates gave me there: if you feel you can continue the game in a fair way, even with the knowledge you posses of Babylonia, you are welcome to stay.

I can fully concur with your assesment that next time you invite a third party when investigating 'cheating'.


I want to add that I will second SlowThinker if he feels you should leave the game. As it is, he has been put in a 'uncomfortable' position, and it is his Civ that has been compromised by your peeks.

Game Delay
As it is, I'm late posting my save.
Unfortuately, I am suffering from a HUGE toothache, which my dentist has so far not been able to solve... It appears some bone-splinter or so is harrassing my gum or jaw-bone...I'm under heavy pain-killers, that sort of affect my state-of-mind . I'm going to see a surgeon next week .
I'm feeling a bit better now, but give the current state of the game (with Kull playing after me) I guess I could hold my turn a little longer?

[La Fayette]

AFAIK SlowThinker is one of the 3-4 players who know most about this game and the way it works.
Therefore he knows perfectly well that 5 wonders in a row is a big surprise for anyone.
I think he will understand Kull's concern very soon (Slow ... Slow ... SlowThinker ) and we'll be able to go on playing 'quietly' (just alike when some Hittites had a nasty surprise close to Assyrian land ).

[SlowThinker]

...Back from skiing, sorry for the delay...

Originally posted by Kull
The news of ST's wonder completion (and the promise of 4 more to come) really set me back.

I deliberately chose so high number so that it was clear it was a joke... I was simply happy that my own wonder was built.

Originally posted by Kull
Slow Thinker was quite affronted and claimed that there were legal explanations for everything. He in turn accused me of cheating (because I looked at his game file - which is true)...

I don't think I was affronted. The fact you were thinking I had been cheating was only funny from my point of view (sorry for that ), because I knew the saves would easily confirm I was right.
Also I don't think I accused you from cheating. Here are my hardest words from my e-mail:

I consider looking at savegames as very unreasonable. You could ask somebody neutral!

In any way I don't consider your behaviour as cheating (also because you published it). But frankly, I think opening my saves was a little bit stupid and impatient ( But I know we agree on that point.)

I can easily include your mistake under following part of our rules:

If you break a rule by a mistake nothing horrible happens. But you have to announce it and warn other players.

Also I consider 'accusing a player of cheating' (I would use a better words, for example 'checking a player') as something perfectly legal (of course not direct opening of his savegames!).
Another point is that I see no sense of such a conduct (no sense for both cheating and suspicion).

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by germanos
I'm feeling a bit better now, but give the current state of the game (with Kull playing after me) I guess I could hold my turn a little longer?

No problem.
Moreover Straybow might come in the meantime ... I can replay my turn.
Or SparrowHawk may play a full turn, not only Ctrl-N

Originally posted by germanos
Uhmmm... I have been in the exact same position of you Kull, not too long ago...

You also opened my saves?

[Sparrowhawk]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
...Back from skiing, sorry for the delay...

Sorry to interupt such a potentially serious discussion, but isn't this dangerous?

I mean playing civ and being a "Slowthinker" could result in players not wanting to play MP with you.

But skiing and being a "Slowthinker" could result in an unfortunate meeting with a tree could it not?

Or even worse, taking that 1000 foot plunge!

Back on topic though, I am pleased to see that this issue has appartently been resolved without losing any players. to Slowthinker and to Kull for diffusing a potential game ending situation.

As for me playing an actual turn, I would rather not, both for reasons I have stated before and for the fact that my knowledge of maps (the Hittite for now, and others potentially later) makes playing actual turns impossible without using infomation that I may be privy to (see above the problems with opening someone elses save). As the human sub, my value is in not being able to take advantage of knowing the map of other civs.

/me

[SlowThinker]

Now how to close the problem.

Kull got some additional info, therefore he got an advantage over me but also over other players.

To clear the advantage over other players, I think it should be published that Kull knows now that I have good relations with both my neighbours (Persians and Assyrians): they helped me to build the Diplomatic System.

About clearing an advantage towards me:
I got the following offer from Kull:

...I'll provide you a free glimpse of the inner workings of the Egyptian Empire, and also hand over a monetary settlement of half my gold (not an insignificant sum) as recompense for this
illegal action.

Gold is out of a question, I don't see a reason for such a recompense.
I don't want to see the interior of your empire, since I would lose an enjoyment from exploration a couple turns later when I will prepare my total conquest against you .
But I think I should conform your knowledge about my progress of exploring and taking huts in lands between our kingdoms, therefore I am asking you for an e-mail that explains more detailedly what you noticed from my map. I will do a glimpse in a corresponding fashion.
Another problem is that this way Assyria gets a disavantage, because I suppose it is also involved in exploring this area. But I think this is not so big problem because the action would be similar if Babylon and Egypt exchange maps. Anyway Assyria is asked to protest if it feels harmed.

[SlowThinker]

Sparrowhawk, I simply don't think at all when skiing.

[Darius871]

Originally posted by SlowThinker You also opened my saves?

Nonono, it was in another game. He too did the right thing and came clean, and is still playing.

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Slow Thinker
Also I consider 'accusing a player of cheating' (I would use a better words, for example 'checking a player') as something perfectly legal

I had not to be sober when I wrote it!
Of course I feel very insulted and I challenge you, treacherous Kull, to a PBEM duel :
Fast PBEM duels - a try to start a new kind of Civ2 entertainment

[Kull]

We'll see about that, filthy Babylonian scum! Mayhap if you're able to scare up enough players I might be amenable......

[SlowThinker]

Learn to read, ignoramus. Or hire a better valet. Duel is for two persons only.

[germanos]

*Knowledge gained from an encounter in the southern desert.

*Explorers continue in all four directions.

[Kull]

Egyptian scouts continue their trek through the endless searing deserts of the east and west.

Emissaries have been dispatched to the Hittite capital to request the removal of the hatti charioteers who appear to have taken up permanent residence in the middle of the Memphis-to-Petra road!