oedo´s unfinished

[Richard Bruns]

Okay, assume I start with Alphabet and want the fast track to Monarchy. Ceremonial Burial and code of laws are both type 0 techs, so they can be the first two. But Monarchy is also a type 0, so I can't reasearch it on the third try and have to get something else. That explains my observations.

So the designers used this as a way to prevent certain fast track tech paths. Good planning. But it seems that there should be no problem with Pottery (1), Map Making (2), Seafaring (0) if you timed it right. A Pottery, Alphabet, Map Making, Seafaring tech tree should work just fine.

*Goes and tests this hypothesis*

It worked! Seafaring was the fourth tech I recieved.

Thnaks for the research, oedo! This is great. Now we can plan our tech path with unerring accuracy, and manipulate tech trading so the right options will be available. Congratulations on your excellent work!

[Richard Bruns]

Oops, I just realised that I misread your post. You said that the "Alphabet->Map Making->Pottery->Seafaring" path does work, and I thought you said it didn't. Sorry for the earlier confusion.

But you said in the other thread that "map making->pottery->seafaring" does not work. Hmm... Maybe this means that if you start with a tech, it doesn't affect the pattern.

So, the unavailable techs will be Map Making (2), Pottery (1), Seafaring (0). So if you start with Alphabet, you can't get Seafaring as the third tech. But if you don't start with it and have to research it, you will be fine.

Now we need to test, does this pattern also affect the techs you get from huts? For example, if you have obtained one tech, does that mean you will never get Bronze[1]
Masonary[1]
Pottery[1]
Warrior Code[1]
from huts?

[Albert B]

Hey all, first I have to give a big thanks to all for the tips/info I have received over time. I have visited the site a ton of times but just signed up for an account.

Anyway, It would appear pretty obvious to me that if you take this formula and include Richard's observations, it would appear that all techs of a particular type (war, econ, etc) very well could have the same assigned number (0,1 or 2).

For my third and final note I just have to say that all of the recent statistical analysis of civ is pretty exciting for me. I am a programmer by trade but a statistician at heart. I never dreamed of doing such work on the game but now I find myself constantly trying to think of other areas of the game to analyze.

Albert B

[Sequoya]

oedo,

Congratulations again.

Just for fun, I compared your "oedo value" to the position of each tech in the rules.txt list. There seems to be a definite pattern there.

All of the techs in your table repeated a 2, 1, 0 pattern starting with Alphabet. In other words, Bridge Building, Bronze Working and Ceremonial Burial, the 8th, 9th and 10th techs in the list, have "oedo values" of 2, 1 and 0, in that order. Theology, Theory of Gravity and Trade, the 83rd, 84th and 85th techs, also repeat. The only exception is Chemistry. You gave it a value of 0, its position in the table would indicate a value of 2. (0 must be an typo since 2 happens to be the value for Chemistry in your example path.)

If this pattern holds for the as yet undiscovered techs, a simplification of your basic formula may be possible. Every time a tech can be researched, one third of them are effectively taken off the complete list of techs. Next research time those techs are put back on and another third is taken off the list. On the first research event, the 2nd (Alphabet, made available by the joker phenomenon), 5th, 8th, etc, techs are taken out of the available list. In the second research event, the 3rd, 6th, 9th (Bronze Working), etc, are taken out of the list. In the third research event, the 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th (Ceremonial Burial), etc, are taken out of the list. This pattern should then repeat.

This also explains why it is impossible to get Monarchy in four tries without free techs or huts. Both prerequisites, Ceremonial Burial and Code of Laws, are removed from the list on the third research event!!!

What do you think?

Sequoya
[This message has been edited by Sequoya (edited December 05, 2000).]

[Chainsaw]

C'mon oedo, tell us, whats your real last name, Meier or Reynolds?
Respect! I would never ever had found the patience to do such investigations! I bow down before thee...

[arii]

Great work Oedo. Congratulation. It's going to be interesting to plan odd pathways using this data and surprise your opponent with units he would not expect at this stage of the game.

[DaveV]

Another brilliant insight, oedo! Thanks for sharing it.

I think Sequoya is probably right, that the formula is just based on position in rules.txt. Here's a list of the techs, each marked with the turn when it's not available. Take the number of techs you've discovered, divide by 3, and take the remainder (modulus, for fellow programmer types). Any tech marked with that number in the following table is not available for research.

2 Advanced Flight,
0 Alphabet,
1 Amphibious Warfare,
2 Astronomy,
0 Atomic Theory,
1 Automobile,
2 Banking,
0 Bridge Building,
1 Bronze Working,
2 Ceremonial Burial,
0 Chemistry,
1 Chivalry,
2 Code of Laws,
0 Combined Arms,
1 Combustion,
2 Communism,
0 Computers,
1 Conscription,
2 Construction,
0 The Corporation,
1 Currency,
2 Democracy,
0 Economics,
1 Electricity,
2 Electronics,
0 Engineering,
1 Environmentalism,
2 Espionage,
0 Explosives,
1 Feudalism,
2 Flight,
0 Fundamentalism,
1 Fusion Power,
2 Genetic Engineering,
0 Guerrilla Warfare,
1 Gunpowder,
2 Horseback Riding,
0 Industrialization,
1 Invention,
2 Iron Working,
0 Labor Union,
1 The Laser,
2 Leadership,
0 Literacy,
1 Machine Tools,
2 Magnetism,
0 Map Making,
1 Masonry,
2 Mass Production,
0 Mathematics,
1 Medicine,
2 Metallurgy,
0 Miniaturization,
1 Mobile Warfare,
2 Monarchy,
0 Monotheism,
1 Mysticism,
2 Navigation,
0 Nuclear Fission,
1 Nuclear Power,
2 Philosophy,
0 Physics,
1 Plastics,
2 Plumbing,
0 Polytheism,
1 Pottery,
2 Radio,
0 Railroad,
1 Recycling,
2 Refining,
0 Refrigeration,
1 The Republic,
2 Robotics,
0 Rocketry,
1 Sanitation,
2 Seafaring,
0 Space Flight,
1 Stealth,
2 Steam Engine,
0 Steel,
1 Superconductor,
2 Tactics,
0 Theology,
1 Theory of Gravity,
2 Trade,
0 University,
1 Warrior Code,
2 The Wheel,
0 Writing,

[Jing]

Very impressive, oedo. I meant to do the same kind of experiment, but I ran out of patience faster than a fighter out of fuel. Thanks for the excellent work.

This is obviously implemented for better game balance, because, as suas333 pointed out, it prevents one civ to be too specialized in one particular branch of the tech tree and ignore development in other areas altogether. However, the way the pattern is determines sees to be random (i.e. based on alphabetical order rather than, say, tech category). So I wonder if it could cause some anomaly, such as the one raised in the question "Why is Warrior Code bad?". But I guess if the pool of techs is big enough, the chance for that to happen is rather small. Beisdes, if this pattern is correct, once you have obtained the pre-reqs for a particular tech, it will only stay out of the choice menu once among three advance times.

I am very interested in this topic because I am considering if this should be implemented in Freeciv. One of problems with Freeciv gameplay is that tech development is too fast and unbalanced. Another big problem is that expansion is way too easy -- nobody bothers with city development at all. I think a higher degree of unhappiness, like in the Deity level of Civ2, will address the problem by slowing the game down, but it seems no one would listen. People are just too set in their ways, I guess.

But I digress. Thanks again and keep up the good work.

[debeest]

Unbelievable, oedo. First oedo years, now oedo techs. I don't know whether to bow down before your astonishing persistence and perspicacity, or to suggest therapy for your obsessive compulsive disorder....

[oedo]

you´re possibly speaking to a more serious problem here debeest. thank god this one was the final secret civ2 had left, at least I think so.

I don´t believe that the values can be derived from the position in the rules.txt, too many value didn´t match.

[Sequoya]

Clearly this issue isn't settled. Which values don't match, oedo?

There is possibly more to this. We have all heard tales of techs that disappear for a long time (like Flight or occasionally Trade). With the proposed solution, techs would only be unavailble for one research turn. Maybe certain techs are just rarer, or maybe the pattern changes after you have reached a certain number of techs. The beaker cost for techs follows a regular progression and then takes a big jump at the 20th tech. The same thing could happen with the unavailable tech list.

What we need are more fully developed tech paths to analyze. This could be from a real game or a cheat mode test. Does anyone have any data they might wish to contribute?
[This message has been edited by Sequoya (edited December 06, 2000).]

[Kaak]

so, being the philosophical type instead of the number chunching type, why on earth would the game designers do that?! and I pray they don't do it in civ3....

[SilverDragon]

Just printed it out. I am going to research what the results of huts are on each terrain.

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Email me at
SilverDragon141@aol.com

[Blaupanzer]

Oedo, thanks for taking the time to do this. You obviously don't have a life, and we civvers deeply appreciate that.

We had some specific discussions recently about Pottery coming up, then not being available for two turns. Everyone "knew" this at that time. This formula will not accomodate that known fact. Has the fact become myth or is there at least one remaining anomaly here?

[Ribannah]

I think there are quite a few remaining "anomalies". I've noticed the same thing about Pottery. Other techs, like Electronics, seem to be available every turn (no, not as the joker - Conscription is up, too). And there is the Warrior Code effect (see elsewhere).


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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire