A word with you John...

[CapTVK]

Hey John,

It was recently discovered that ToT contains an undocumented simultaneous human movement setting. Any other undocumented 'features' you've been holding out on us?

Come on, time to come clean, confession is good for the soul...


for details check:
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/001945.html?2#2

[John Possidente]

How did you guys find that? No, wait--I don't want to know.

There were a few things that got left in--or left out, depending on how you look at it. What happened was that as we went along, merrily working on the game, Spectrum and then Hasbro management (remember, development of this game spanned the Hasbro buy-out) fiddled with the schedule many, many times. One result of this was that features we once planned to finish had to be cut. Some were close to done, but not quite (and they hadn't been tested), while some were just started. Rather than go through and remove all the code, the programmers (on the off chance that maybe we could reanimate a feature or two) just deactivated it. (Don't ask me for details; I'm not a programmer.)

The simultaneous human movement thing was actually a leftover from the Multiplayer Gold Edition. The team put it in and it seemed to work, but in testing we found that it caused major game play problems, including opportunities for blatant cheating. So, we nixed it in the shipping version, but the code, like a trick knee, remained in place waiting to cause trouble. We developed ToT based on a version of the MGE code-base--thus the legacy simultaneous human turns code.

[CapTVK]

That would also explain the extra map windows you could open with the right mousebutton, it seemed kind of a trivial feature at the time. But this would be quite useful during simultaneous movement.

quote: One result of this was that features we once planned to finish had to be cut. Some were close to done, but not quite (and they hadn't been tested), while some were just started. Rather than go through and remove all the code, the programmers (on the off chance that maybe we could reanimate a feature or two) just deactivated it. (Don't ask me for details; I'm not a programmer.)

So there's more? Any chance you could ask one of the programmers to drop by in the forums for some insight?

quote: The simultaneous human movement thing was actually a leftover from the Multiplayer Gold Edition.

Yup, we already found out that it works in MGE too.

[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited December 18, 2000).]

[John Possidente]

Actually, the right-click extra windows feature was introduced in CivNet. Nobody used it--well, almost nobody.

[Curumbor Elendil]

quote: Originally posted by John Possidente on 12-18-2000 09:25 AM The simultaneous human movement thing was actually a leftover from the Multiplayer Gold Edition. The team put it in and it seemed to work, but in testing we found that it caused major game play problems, including opportunities for blatant cheating. So, we nixed it in the shipping version, but the code, like a trick knee, remained in place waiting to cause trouble. We developed ToT based on a version of the MGE code-base--thus the legacy simultaneous human turns code.

You wouldn't happen to know what kind of cheating? You see, lots of people are now using the simultaneous-move feature in multiplayer games; in fact, some people are now refusing to play games without it. I'm still uneasy, though; I'd like to know the main game problems with this mode.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[markusf]

Would it be possible for you to tell us what other modes where left out of the final version?

[John Possidente]

I honestly don't remember what features were left out, disabled, and stubbed off. The development process got pretty confusing at times, and it was over a year ago. Sorry.

I also don't remember the specifics of how folks cheated using the simultaneous movement. What I remember is the testers throwing things across the room at each other when somebody got caught. :-) It had something to do with changing the doubling parameters during the game or attacking or editing other players' cities after they'd finished their turn, or something like that--things only a determined cheater (or a skillful tester) would even try, I suppose.

[Curumbor Elendil]

quote: Originally posted by John Possidente on 12-20-2000 09:20 AM I also don't remember the specifics of how folks cheated using the simultaneous movement. What I remember is the testers throwing things across the room at each other when somebody got caught. :-) It had something to do with changing the doubling parameters during the game or attacking or editing other players' cities after they'd finished their turn, or something like that--things only a determined cheater (or a skillful tester) would even try, I suppose.

Oh, but you can bet people will figure them out and start using them!

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Xin Yu]

I have a clue on what else had been left over. The 'MaxPlayers=' option. You guys planned to give us more than 7 players. What a pity it did not get accomplished!

[Shadowstrike]

Xin! So we can have more then 7 civs? The SLeaguers will go crazy over this......

[MacUser]

John, would you happen to be acquainted with any of the Mac programmers from MacSoft that worked on MPG (or ANY Mac programmers for that matter)? The Mac-Civ ACS Community would LOVE to give "simultaneous" moves a try, but, alas no one (well, me at least) seems to know how to hack the Mac app. Do you think that you could help us out?

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Be what you is and not what you is not. Folks who do that are the happiest lot!
- Mr. Wizard the Lizard,

[John Possidente]

Hate to burst bubbles of optimism, but it seems that's my job today. Sigh.

The MaxUsers feature was designed to allow you to limit the number of human player civs in a multiplayer game, not to allow more than 7 civs. At least, if I remember correctly, that's what it was.

Wish I could help with the Mac issues, but I had nothing to do with the development of the Mac version of MPG. That was done entirely out-of-house.

On a positive note, I heard yesterday from a very reliable inside source that Hasbro has every intention of seeing Civ 3 through to release. (Don't know if it was ever in doubt, but if it was, there you go.)

OT: The person also mentioned a future Master of Orion title...

[DarthVeda]

Yeah, uh, Master of Orion III has been in development for sometime now by QuickSilver. It's due out in a year.
http://www.moo3.com

[John Possidente]

Yeah, it's just nice to hear verification from inside that it's still on the schedule and actual work is being done. We've all seen how much company announcements are worth. (Agents of Justice, anyone?)

[Julius Brenzaida]

quote: Originally posted by John Possidente on 12-20-2000 09:20 AM I honestly don't remember what features were left out, disabled, and stubbed off. The development process got pretty confusing at times, and it was over a year ago. Sorry.

Well, I figure that the gigamap thing was left behind. The programmers of MGE decided to make it possible to have 32767 squares instead of 10000, but then did not use it.
Too bad they did not do that for the number of civs and the number of cities, or did they ?
Is there a way to make them talk : money, torture …



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Oh Man, when will you understand that your greatness lies in your failure - Goethe