Lazy programmers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MGamer07]

The programers of Civ2 ToT were very lazy. They didn't put in any editors, they left the game glitchy, and I doubt that they'll ever make a patch to fix it. They could have at least brought in the old FW editor for the events and stuff, made their own editor for the sprites, and make a map editor! I read about the maps in the other post, but that's no excuse. They could update it with the new terrian, and instead of going through all the work to actaully change it, they could just make a menu option saying: Change terrian:sky,Alpha centuri, orbit, etc. And John, could you relay this idea to the people at Micropose? i think the reason nobody is buying it is because people like me are very dissapointed in it, and untill it changes, i'm tellling everyone who asks "should i buy it or not?" will get the answer "no, buy the old one, the new one isn't very good". Please make some changes.

[John Possidente]

Well, I'll pass along the message, but I can't promise that it will change anyone's plans. With Civ III on the horizon, it's difficult to make a case for spending the programmers' time to upgrade to Test of Time. I wish it wasn't the case, but that's just one of the frustrations we face--limited resources and unlimited cool ideas.

[don Don]

MGamer07, honey works better than vinegar…

It does seem odd that there is no editor, since every other version included one. Usually the programmers make something of that sort just to create the game and scenarios. It may be way too rough cut to release for the market as is. But if it somehow wound up somewhere on the internet…

Know what I mean, eh? Wink, wink? Nudge, nudge?

[Civmaniac]

NOT every version had an editor!

I have never had an editor because my last version was Civ I.

We must have fans of ToT make editors because Microprose is LAZY!

[Hasdrubal]

quote: Originally posted by John Possidente on 02-07-2000 09:45 AM that's just one of the frustrations we face--limited resources and unlimited cool ideas.

Well, I parted with $50 of my limited resources, and am now frustrated that I have a game that can't do what it's predecessors could. Not to mention that after patch 1.1 it is still bug-infested.

Over the course of the years, I've allways rushed to the shops when the faintest rumour of there appearing a product that had 'Civ' written on the cover reached my ears. I've never regretted that, with a minor exception for ToT. The regret stems not from what ToT is, but from what it easily could've been, or can be still. So my cool idea would be, that Microprose release another patch, that debugs the program and makes the game more editable, like we've come to expect with Civ games. Don't milk the community that buys your products with a rushed released that won't be brought up to par because of a new release. Pamper the fans, that they may remain loyal to the product.


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Hasdrubal's Home.
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam.
[This message has been edited by Hasdrubal (edited July 16, 2000).]

[tobyr]

Now look: you can criticize Microprose all you want for the lack of a ToT map editor (and other omissions), but this has LITTLE TO DO WITH PROGRAMMER LAZINESS! Microprose is a business. They budget their work. They try to control development costs. They evidently ran out of development budget before a map editor could be added to the product.

The development team probably underestimated the number of things that had to be changed to support the fascinating 4-map game. (They even failed to change more directly relevant stuff. E.g., the value of a trade route is not affected by moving among maps.)

In making their budget decisions, MP was also guessing how well ToT would sell. This is a chicken/egg problem, because obviously it would sell better if it had a map editor, but not necessarily better enough to justify the cost of the additional work.

- toby


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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

[MGamer07]

Okay, I made those statements when I first got the game, and was pretty mad. Now I've started to see how good the game is in other aspects (SCENARIOS!), and have partially changed my mind. I hadn't played through very much of the game either. I've also figured out ways around some of the program faults.
BUT.....
Microprose should release a second patch to de-bug the game and make it more editable. I see uneditable sprites as a big obstacle for scenario desingers who want to use sprites (like myself). Also, they should make another scenario like Somewhere in Time, with new sprites, so there would be more graphics options and another great scenario to play.

[tobyr]

Obviously if MP did what you want, it would increase sales, but probably not enough. There is an IMMENSE cost in doing what you want, because new programmers and testers must be trained (the team was dispersed); EVERYTHING has to be retested after making a few small changes, to make sure everything built alright; and such an effort would somehow (possibly in management oversight) compete with the progress of civ3.

I would guess a cost of $50,000 to $150,000. They could recover the cost by selling 10,000 to 30,000 extra units, if they make a clear profit of $5 per unit. Before they lay out the development cash, they have to "prove" that the added sales would occur, and I doubt they can do that.

- toby


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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

[Hasdrubal]

Fair enough, let's look at it from a cost and profit perspective.
I read on this site that the Civilization series was voted the fifth best game series of all time. Another sign of the immense succes of Civ in the gaming industry. I'd say that the brand name 'Civilization' is easily one of the ten most valuable in an industry that has recently overtaken the film industry. I don't think that $50,000 is an awful lot of money to spend on the upkeep of the brand name.
What bothers me, is that ToT could easily be the flagship of the Civ product line, but that a few minor flaws keep it from attaining that status. Without a good edit system, there will never be developed the amount of user designed scenarios, modpacks, maps etc., that have contributed so much to the life-span of Civ II and it's value for money. All that is needed are a few editable functions. The community will supply the players with all the rest, free of charge to the company. That would make ToT effortlessly rise above the likes of CtP, SMAC and Civ II.
The map editor from Civ II works with ToT. Kind of. There is also already a good map-generator in ToT. Surely, a junior programmer can combine the two in a few afternoons to give us a working map editor in ToT? That would greatly improve the value of ToT for me, since I've gotten used to playing on pre-designed maps in Civilization in previous releases in the series.

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Hasdrubal's Home.
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam.

[Hasdrubal]

Double Post.
[This message has been edited by Hasdrubal (edited July 19, 2000).]

[MGamer07]

I have something for microprose that may have a VERY large affect on they're sales:
Someone who had heard that civ2 was good from one of their friends a couple of years ago, but never bought it. So they go into a store, and see ToT, and decide that they'll buy it. They buy the game, and then think the game isn't very good. Later Civ3 comes out, he thinks "The last one wasn't very good, this one will probably be the same". THAT is important to microproses sales. If they make a bad impression with one game, it will bring down the rest of the chain.

What could add to that is, if that guy goes telling all of his friends about how bad ToT is, they'll get the same impression as the first guy.

[tobyr]

Hasrubal and MGamer07,
You are being quite pragmatic, but I think it's likely MP sees the situation differently.

MP knows that Civ2 has a great rep, and when civ3 comes out, there will be tremendous word of mouth advertizing. This game will stand on its merits, and be tried out by a large, presold audience, even if it does not come out for another 18 months.

So the question is whether ToT will sell much better if MP makes it easier to create scenarios. Bear in mind that MP may be making a very small profit per unit (ToT has been heavily discounted), and that it is difficult to prove (or even indicate) in advance that another release will increase sales much.

Finally, if MP believes that another release of ToT will boost sales, rememeber that they probably have to work on this ToT release instead of doing something else. It is possible that the profit potential for all their other current work looks better than boosting ToT.

MP did make one ToT patch release, but they HAD to, there were a few really serious bugs in the original product. It appears (from postings here) that the ToT SCI FI game has serious bugs. It is noteworthy that MP did not get enough complaints about the sci fi game to prompt a patch release with bug fixes. I doubt MP is seeing enough ToT excitement to warrant another release.

- toby




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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

[The Mad Monk]

I have to say one thing: I play another game, Total Annhilation, which is now an orphan since its company, Cavedog, went under a year or more ago. This is a five-year-old RTS game, that has to compete directly with the likes of Starcraft, with no "corporate" support an little to no hope of getting any. Is the TA community sitting around and complaining? Heck, no! Third party developers have put out thousands units, maps, modpacks, scenarios, even AIs and Bug Fixes! That's right, they've actually gone so far as to fix stuff the companies refused to, and put it out for the world to use!

We could use a little more of that spirit 'round here...
[This message has been edited by The Mad Monk (edited July 20, 2000).]

[markusf]

huh? Cavedog never went undeR??? They released TA kingdoms a while back which was "crap"... But i must admint TA was the best real time warfare game ever created, and starcraft sucks in comparison, TA has over 300 units to build from and there is no such thing as a superfleet or super army as in Startcraft(15 careeries)

[The Mad Monk]

Just double checked--yep, Cavedog was 'dissolved'; the web site may still be up, but Cavedog, if it exists at all, exists in name only. Humongous was supposed to do TA2, but they've dropped the project, and nobody's picked it up...at least officially.

Unofficially?
http://www.tauniverse.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000044.html