SCI FI game -- experienced players, please review

[tobyr]

There have been relatively few postings about the sci fi game. I've gotten the impression that this game was not debugged as well as the fantasy game, and has a number of illogicalities in it. I've also suspected (from the lack of postings) that it is not being played very much. So:

You experienced sci fi players, please post!
- how good is the game?
- do you recommend it?
- are there noteworthy problems that one should know about?
- does it suck?

- toby

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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

[Civmew2]

I am Civmew2, slthough you already know that. I consider myself an expert on the sci-fi game. For your first question: yes, it is good. Question #2: Only if you like really cool units and several awesome techs.
Question 3: I really don't think so...I never had any problems.
Final Question: Hmmm...only if you think disintegration of enemy units, giant gaurdian units that you can't build but have to face, humans and aliens warring with each other, and several others things that suck.

[Shadowstrike]

I'd have to say its a really fun twist on Civilization II. Its an improvement of sorts, adding scenario elements into the standard game of Civilization II.

The only illogic I find is that Guardians and Coecors are supposedly trained after accepting Primitive Weapons and Arete (respectively), but you can build them right from the beginning.

[The Mad Monk]

Toby:

While it does have a few bugs (we are talking about TOT, after all ), they never really got in the way of my enjoyment of the Sci-Fi game. I do recommend it, my only reservation being that there seems to be a chance that an event required for the Earthgate ('transcendance') may not occur.

I posted a longish defence of both the Fantasy and SF aspects of TOT; unfortunately, it was done in the generically labeled "Couple of Questions" thread in the General Forum, and promptly got buried--it is currenly on page four...

Rather than direct folks there, I'll just post it here. It was in answer to a post suggesting that the Fantsy and SF games were mere 'renamings' of standard Civ:

quote: What, that old chestnut? In case nobody else knows what Earthling7 is talking about, an online reveiwer (at Gamespot, I think) trashed TOT because he thought they just "renamed the techs"; I use that reveiw as an example of how reviewers just don't look at the games closely enough. Let me start by saying, of the two new tech trees, the fantasy one adheres closest to original civ. Also, because there is no known way to edit the effects of buildings or wonders, you are bound to think of them as simply being renamed. In the fantsy game, this is largely true, since it appears that little was done to alter the shield cost, maintenance, or position in the tech tree. Units are another matter entirely. Take "Horse Breeding", for example: it holds the same position as Horseback Riding, and provides a "Horseman" unit; the similarities end there. The standard horseman is 2/1/2_1/1, and costs 20 shields; this bruiser is 5/3/2_1/2, and costs 40 shields! Furthermore, it is buildable only by the the Infidel tribe. This is a recurring theme in the fantsy game; each tribe has its own, unique set of units. Buteos start off with flying unit--I'm not sure if they have any units that the game dosen't treat as helicopters, including the settler! They are also able to enter two maps (midgard and clouds) from the beginning. The stygian units are for the most part unbribable, and can enter three of the maps (midgard, underworld, and sea) from the beginning. Their horse unit dosen't come until later, but it has nearly the same stats as the infidel one, plus has def*2 vs. horse and can ignore ZOC. Some techs cannot be acquired through reaserch at all, but must be won; "Ally with Dwarves", for example, allows you to build the fantasy engineer unit, but you will never get it unless you find a barbarian dwarf and bribe it. If you want to use dragon units (12/15/5_3/3, surface and clouds, attack air units, see two spaces, unbribable), you have to defeat one first (DIFFICULT), and that only gives you the preq tech that allows reasearch in that direction. BTW, dragons are barbarian units, and start to appear pretty early--and you thought barb dragoons were bad... And then there are the Sorcerers. These are 6/4/6(6), see two, can attack air, have access to all four maps, and cost 50 shields; Everyone has them, from the begining (that's right, turn one you build a city, turn two you can start to build a sorcerer). I could add more, but tobyr is the fantasy expert here. The science fiction game (Lalande) takes all this a couple steps further. Here, they scramble the tech tree, units, and even buildings (as much as you can). For example, two of the first techs you can reasearch are Adaptive Farming and Craftsmanship; Adaptive Farming gives you the algae farm, which is the SF equivalent to a harbor; they cost 80 shields (please consider building costs as estimates), slightly more than the harbor. Craftsmanship allows you to build the Capital, and Sir Arthur's Stone; SAS is better known as JSB's Cathedral! It costs only 100 shields, and lasts about as long as you would expect the Oracle would (more on this later). The two techs are the preqs for Primitive Machinery, which gives you--brace yourself--workshops, the FACTORY equivalent; only this factory costs 40 shields, with a maintenance of 2. This alone can cause radical shifts in strategy, since you can produce a lot of units a lot earlier, but you can end up with pollution long before you're ready to deal with it; plus, that 2 gold maintenance can be real burden in the early game. Other buildings and wonders will also cause a completely different game; you have to get 7 techs before you get the Granery equivelent, and when you do it costs 140 shields! The Magellan's eq. comes at the same time, but dosen't last very long. The Pyramids eq. comes much later, and lasts a short time, and the Great Wall eq. even later, but never expires (most units fly by this time, so its effect is reduced). Then there are the civs. They are divided into two types, (four) human and (three)alien (the background is that the two species crash-land on the planet at about the same time), and the two cannot communicate until somebody researches Xenolingustics, about mid-game. Unitil then, meetings tend to be violent, and you might be tempted to wipe the other species off planet, except for one thing: each species has techs only it can research, and the tree is set up so you cannot get to the higher levels without techs from both sides. This means not only that you can't wipe them out, you have to keep them healthy enough to do effective reaserch; you can bet they won't show you the same courtesy. Each side has their own units, like the fantasy game, and shared units; there are also units nobody can build, but show up as barbs and in huts. A case in point is the Ophion. This unit is described as a giant sandworm, 3/2/2_2/2, cross impassable, ignore ZOC, INVISIBLE UNTIL ATTACK. These are usually found as barbs, but they can also be the FIRST thing you pull out of a hut. Another is the Bombus, desribed as a large flying insect, 4/1/6_1/1, spots subs, def*2 vs. air, attacks air, sees two (I should add at this point that you can switch damage to helicopter-types off, and this was done in both Fantasy and SF). You can build this at the same point you the the granery eq., but they also appear as barbs and can also be the first thing you get from a hut. This alone will force you to think defensibly early on, since you never know when one the buggers will attack a city... Terrain is different, too. There are no forests. Instead, there are 'burning trees', a native tree-equivalent that provides 1 food and 2 trade--that's right, not shields, trade (actually called data). You can irrigate them and get the grassland eq., or mine them and get salt flats (2 shields, 2 data, minable and roadable). The new graphics also provide a refreshing change from original civ (goes for fantsy and AC in extended, too). In the fantasy game, you can access all maps from the beginning; this is not the case with the SF game. You have to earn your way to each successive map, each requiring its own units and strategies. I could go on, but I should leave some surprises. Besides, I want to post this before my computer crashes again. In short, TOT provides two worlds that are different enough to make you feel like you're playing new game, and provides excellent examples for scenario designers to shoot for.

Say, do you think DanQ would call this a review?

[tobyr]

I'm delighted to be getting exactly the sort of info I asked for. These are the most positive comments I've seen about the sci fi game, and it sounds quite appealing indeed.

Even more comments, please...

tnx,
- toby


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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

[Kestrel]

Coming Soon :

-> The "Sci-Fi-Plus" Modpack / Scenario

Blurb extract

"As our ship was entering the atmosphere of Funestis, and our Escape-Pods were jettisoning, there was a report that one of the last acts of our ship's sensing devices was the detection of a 'blip' nearby which could only have been another spacecraft entering the planet's atmosphere at about the same time.

Whether this 'blip' represented another human craft or something else entirely is yet unknown..."

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"Your escape-pod has landed with the remnants of a Marines detachment, a Commando group and a complement of Ship's Security. These units are a finite resource and, once lost, can never be rebuilt.

Decide whether you wish to seize the opportunity to use these forces to scout and perhaps forage for equipment and supplies from other groups or whether you wish to use them in a defensive manner, husbanding your strength for later.

You *MUST* research into "Indigenous Weaponry" construction, and then Martial Arts training, as soon as possible if you are to survive on this unknown, potentially hostile world."

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I'm just play-testing it now and parameter tweaking, E-Mail me if anyone wants a Beta-Test copy.

[DJ]

Well, I also like the sci-fi part until you get close to the end and the game becomes a total discover channel. I mean, what's up with the animals and giants that you have the option to build? I want complete futuristic warfare, not some animals more powerful then my machines.

[Civmew2]

quote: Originally posted by DJ on 08-02-2000 01:18 AM I mean, what's up with the animals and giants that you have the option to build? I want complete futuristic warfare, not some animals more powerful then my machines.

Well, these are genetically engineered creatures given power that most machines do not have. The Typhoeus, I believe that's haow you spell it, is a genetically engineered Dragon. It is bound to be tougher that many units.
Oh, and the giants and animals you can build ARE futuristic...who ever heard of a hundred foot tall genetically engineered human here? Here's a scenario, who would win, a hundred foot human who could probably wipe up half a civ or a ten foot tall piece of walking metal equipped with a laser beam, a missile launcher, and a plasma cannon? Not to mention the mental impact of at least TEN of those units.
I conclusion, we see that genetically engineered animals are just as strong, maybe even stronger, then many of the metallic monsters.

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Civmew2, a Civingpsy Pokemon. It plays, comments, and even writes about the civilization games. It is known for extensive AI beating.

[DJ]

The animals/super humans that look like savages may be strong, but in the end they all are weak compared to the super machines that protect Nona. I wish I could build those machines.
[This message has been edited by DJ (edited August 02, 2000).]

[Civmew2]

Don't we all, DJ, don't we all.