Tech Paradigm

[Venger]

Alright, I've begun modifying my Civ2 to make it the game it should be. Smarter units, realistic techs, better, if not animated, graphics.

I'd like to slightly slow the tech progression to avoid the tech avalanche (this is now the COINED PHRASE people, like ICS...) at the end game.

My question is what is the exact function of the tech paradigm, i.e. it requires x% more shields per number change, etc.

Thanks in advance,

Venger - home of the light infantry replacement for those gay alpine troops. Let's be honest, how stupid is it to see alpine troops skiing across the river or desert? Yikes...oh yeah, they are 4/5 a/d not 5/5...

[John Possidente]

Well--without getting too long winded and specific--you can consider the default value (in the original game) as 100%. Slow research by half, and you've raised the science needed to 200%, and so on. It might seem like a simple solution, but it worked for me.

[William Keenan]

Venger, since your formula would result in a first tech research cost of -15 I think we can safely assume that your formula needs more indepth research.

Secondly Venger, were I you, I would not be so quick to discount anything John has to say on the topic of civ2. Considering he worked on Microprose's Civilization design team for over six years and has written three books (or more) books on topic.

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by William Keenan on 04-29-2000 09:40 PM Venger, since your formula would result in a first tech research cost of -15 I think we can safely assume that your formula needs more indepth research. Secondly Venger, were I you, I would not be so quick to discount anything John has to say on the topic of civ2. Considering he worked on Microprose's Civilization design team for over six years and has written three books (or more) books on topic.

Did you read the post? I didn't offer the formula as my "best guess", rather just an example of what I was looking for. I specifically stated I DIDN'T want to enter the coordinates to determine a curve formula. I simply am requesting an explanation as to how it works, no more, no less.

Second, I didn't "discount anything John has to say on the topic of Civ2". Do you read the posts before replying? I said that the numbers don't hold out because I tested them. Alot. Did you test them William? No?

Why don't you do this experiment:

Edit the rules.txt and change the tech paradigm to 90. Now play the first 5 turns. Any difference between the requirements between that and a 10 paradigm? No. A 9x difference is what one would logically expect. But it doesn't materialize.

In fact, the paradigm peaks early around 20 as I stated, then the science requirements begin to recede back again. If you have any insight or results to add, then do it. If you just want to play hall monitor, go do it on another thread.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by John Possidente on 04-28-2000 09:45 AM Well--without getting too long winded and specific--you can consider the default value (in the original game) as 100%. Slow research by half, and you've raised the science needed to 200%, and so on. It might seem like a simple solution, but it worked for me.

John:

The numbers just don't hold out. It seems that increasing the tech paradigm to 25 actually leads to a higher science requirement than raising it to 40!!! It seems the algorithm has an inverse function that actually causes a bell type curve, where the tech requirements rise at first, but then slowly retract.

I've tested this by creating a deity game, creating a city, and using the cheat mode to give myself an advance each turn. Done this for 5 or so paradigms now...

In fact, the science requirements really don't start to separate until tech 50 or so. By tech 90, there is a few hundred beaker difference between research for a 10 and a 25 tech paradigm. But not nearly what you'd expect. The cumulative effect is to slow research, but it isn't linear and I don't feel like plugging in coordinates to extrapolate a curve formula...

Any idea EXACTLY how tech paradigm works, i.e:

Req=.5(Number*Paradigm)-(Paradigm*2)

Thanks,

Venger

[William Keenan]

I do 'play hall monitor' at times in this forum because many newbies waltz through here trashing the game and insulting the Microprose designers.

I would not normally care about this except that it is very difficult to get the Mircoprose people to answer indepth technical questions (sometimes it takes weeks just to get a, 'no were not going to answer that one' reply). And trash talking newbies make the problem worse.

In your case Venger, it looks like I rushed to judgement of you. I'm also remiss in not seriously addressing your point. So, I'd like to start this discussion over again, OK?

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by William Keenan on 04-30-2000 03:09 PM I do 'play hall monitor' at times in this forum because many newbies waltz through here trashing the game and insulting the Microprose designers. I would not normally care about this except that it is very difficult to get the Mircoprose people to answer indepth technical questions (sometimes it takes weeks just to get a, 'no were not going to answer that one' reply). And trash talking newbies make the problem worse. In your case Venger, it looks like I rushed to judgement of you. I'm also remiss in not seriously addressing your point. So, I'd like to start this discussion over again, OK?

No problem. Hell, you came through for me on that Riflemen issue, so you've earned some credits here...

It appears that maybe 28 is the highest tech paradigm. By using the cheat function to check the amount of shields required for the next advance and giving it every turn, it appears that 28 gives the highest numbers. It's REALLY wierd, 27 and 29 both show lower numbers as you progress.

There is ZERO difference for the first 6 techs. Then tech 7 is marginally different. For the next 25 or so techs the differences seem pretty minor, but then at tech 45 or so it begins to separate, only by a dozen at first, and only a few hundred at the end.

It looks like 28 is the max. I'm gonna play with this and see how it works...

Venger

[John Possidente]

Hmm... Some of that makes sense. The amounts required for the next tech earlly in the game are so small that rounding off probably removes any significant differences made by changing the tech paradigm. Later in the game is when the differences, logically, would show up most.

The tech cost hitting maximum at 28 is interesting. Mick and I tried to avoid making radical changes to the tech paradigm, simply because it can so easily unbalance the game. Thus, we never (to my knowledge) asked the programmers to investigate and explain exactly how it works and what the limits are on it--although I do know that setting it to zero is a really bad idea.

What you've been doing is probably the best course--experimenting and researching it yourself. I know that the programmers and Mick are pretty busy on their next project now, and the chances are slim that they'll be able to look into this (and I don't work there any more, so I can't really apply any pressure).