You guys are putting me on.

[PhilM]

Come on folks, ya can't look at these graphics. There just really bad.
Make me depressed. They belong in the 286 computer era.
Zoom in to try and see what your looking at and just get blurry blobs of pixels. Zoom out and ya need a magnifying glass.

Well I'll try my best to get into it but I don't think I'll last long.
Call to Power, so far, seems just so much more Supreme in every way. Besides the graphics, which I think are excellent, just the way the interface and the whole presentation of the game works. It's class.
CTP "is" the new generation CIV game.

Well anyhow, that's the opinion of a Civ newbie. TOT may have better game play, I really haven't played both enough to know this, but so far, every thing in CTP works so much better than TOT.

Test of Time. How appropriate a name. Certainly testing me out all right.

[William Keenan]

Why do newbies come to this forum to complain about ToT?

Personally, I don't care if you don't like it. The fact that some guy named Phil does like the graphics in ToT does not make any difference to me. I like it, and I want to talk to other people who like it. There are lots of games out there - go pick another one.
[This message has been edited by William Keenan (edited March 31, 2000).]

[Cam]

Phil,

I would encourage you to play both games more before presenting such a committed view.

CtP out of the box has almost universally been seen as teetering on a software disaster - and thank goodness for the CtP community for slaving over the development of numerous patches to make the game workable. There are some good ideas and nice graphics, but the successful execution of these concepts has had to have been done by the willing fans, as the game as presented fails to deliver (especially if you have less than 100megs of RAM). I'm astonished by your view on the CtP interface. Shall I discuss CtP's handling of inter-tribe diplomacy...??? (I know, I shouldn't reopen the CtP whining debate again).

You're not the first to complain about the drab tones of colours in ToT, but these are easily fixable if it's that much of a drama. It's an optional effort, and personally I've not felt the need to go to those lengths (you can tweak your monitor for a start).

ToT is more complex also than it might first appear. There are three game variants as well as the base game, two excellent official scenarios (one on the disc, the other available for download), some interesting uses of multi-maps, and tremendous scope for scenario designers.

I wish you all the success with whichever game (or both) you persist with. I'd encourage you to check out the CtP forums regarding some of the patches/mods created by a few of the CtP fans - again, credit must go to those people. I'd also encourage you to look beyond the alleged drab and blurry graphics with ToT - I've found it to be an excellent game that offers enhanced scope to build.

[MGamer07]

I think that complianers (like myself) should post their comments on the Civ3 board to tell the team on that one that ToT wasn't all that was expected and Civ3 better not be another low-budget knock-off. I don't think it will be, but if it is, I know they're gonna hear about it.

[MWatts]

I agree with you that CTP is better. The interface is good. They don't like it because it's not a CIV II clone. How boring and unimaginative it would be, if it was, (CTP). If they can go on the CTP board and cut it down, Why can't you criticize ToT here? Maybe they can't handle the truth.

[tobyr]

Phil,
I came to ToT from Civ 1, and was initially very disappointed by the incredible blur that the ToT graphics presented. But I persevered, because it seemed to me that the game was trying to present a lot of compact info to me, and I thought I might get used to it.

This was defintely the case. After playng for awhile, I could make sense out of the densely packed info, and it became much easier to see key bits of information when I needed them. But note the following:

(1) You should obtain the lightened terrains, which make everything easier to see. You can download them from several sites, including the "Cradle of Civilization" site.

(2) One thing that is often hard to notice is terrain specials. Some of the animated special terrain can be missed unless you look closely at the right zoom, at the right moment. I like this, it's realistic that you might not see a special mine-able thing at first.

(3) Dense battles, where the terain is packed with units from two or more tribes, can be confusing. But again, I think this is realistic. Battlefields in real life are immensely confusing.

In summary, give yourself time to get used to the graphics. Human beings' pattern recognition capabilities are incredible. ToT is only a game -- you don't need great art or great realtiy, just enough info to play well.

- toby


------------------
toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

[Cam]

MWatts,

Again - I'm astonished that people think the interface of CtP is good - the only good thing about it is the automated city build queues. Otherwise, it's a clickfest of menus and sub-menus.

I didn't like CtP for various reasons - not because it wasn't a Civ2 clone. Although it was more or less a sequel - as was stated numerous times by the designers who frequently drew comparisons with Civ2 in their early interviews - this is despite what Steve Mariotti has just said in his latest. The interviews with Cecilia Barajas would certainly lead you to believe CtP to be an extension of Civ2.

I have not gone to "the CtP board and cut it down" as you suggest, and I'd be surprised if William or Toby have either. I concede that when CtP did first come out (some time back now) there was lots of general discussion on its strengths and weaknesses, where I praised its virtues and condemned its weaknesses.

At any rate, if it bothers you that CtP forums are full of people complaining about that game, surely you're "calling the kettle black" by doing the same here???

You can criticise ToT here - although you might find others critical of your criticism. As MGamer07 has indicated - you'd be better off trying to make some positive contribution to a product in the making than negative and unoriginal complaints about a product that is finished. Criticism is valuable only when it is well considered and has something new to offer.

b.t.w. - if the question was put "What can I do to fix ToT's drab graphics?", several suggestions on dealing with the perceived problem would have been forthcoming.

ToT does have a few shortcomings - I agree. I think the launch price, for one thing, was excessive. I consider its strength is in the extension of the customising aspects (for scenario development et al) but there's been little help on amending unit and resource animations, etc. etc. - I could go on - but where does that get anyone? I think the good things about the package far outweigh some of the downsides - that's what I would like to think these forums should focus on - otherwise I'd be over at the CtP forums submitting topics like "You guys are putting me on" and rabbiting on about the ridiculous trade model in CtP - although I might not know much because I'm a newbie.

[This message has been edited by Cam (edited April 01, 2000).]

[PhilM]

Thanks for the reply folks.
YES!! I am coming around. I've discovered the
gradual levels of zoom I can get using the map view, so I can now get a reasonable compromise between blured pixels and detail.
I think I can handle the graphics now.

....."I could make sense out of the densely packed info, and it became much easier to see key bits of information when I needed them."
..... Yes tobyr, I am just begining to see this and I am impressed.

What's the story with the Tim Smith High-Res patch. I couldn't see version 1 for download at this site. Is this any good?.

I think I am going to enjoy both games now.

"I would encourage you to play both games more before presenting such a committed view."
..........Yes I knew this Cam, But I had to let off steam, after paying $48 Aussie, and seeing completely out of date graphics.
I think TOT will be on my hard drive for a long while to come now that I have looked deeper.
cheers all

[Cam]

"Letting off steam"? Me too!

Phil,

I'm glad you're easing into it - I'm sure that as you immerse yourself, you will increasingly enjoy the game variants and you might dabble with scenario playing, if not development.

Nobody's putting a gun to anyone's head here insisting that you adore ToT, but if you do choose to stick with it, you'll increasingly appreciate the good things it can deliver.

[PhilM]

Thanks Cam.
Hey what's the story with these Unit graphic download files. How do I stick these into TOT. Do they look good at all zoom levels?

[The 1212 Problem]

PHIL YOU DOLT!!!
Civ III is the future. CTP MAKES ME BARF
let sid and firaxis do what they do best, make great CIV games. set the CIV name back before CIV I. Look for CIV III

[Cam]

1212,

Yes - very helpful and insightful. Thanks - terrific stuff.

Phil,

You will need to disable the unit animations - see apolyton.net/forums/Forum29/HTML/000695.html for more on this. You will need to copy your units.bmp file and save it as a backup - then copy with the use of a graphics program the Tim Smith units over the one in your 'Original' or 'Extended' game folder so they match the same/equivalent unit. I've not tried this - so can't offer anecdotal advice. I think most units blur or appear to pixilate if you zoom in too tight.

[PhilM]

Yeah, thanks Cam.

SO 1212, why does CTP MAKE YOU BARF??

"Civ III is the future".. How do you no?
It could end up a flop for all you no.