Ultimate solution to load AI ships

[Exile]

Hmmmmmmmm . . . .

I'll weigh in.

The apparent problem of trade units being exploited to subvert the perceived spirit of a given scenario is, imo, a design mistake.

Any unit placed in a scenario should, ideally, have a good reason for being there. Combat units should be a negotiation between historical simulation and gameplay.

IF trade units are placed in a scenario, they shouldn't be placed there simply because you're used to seeing or building them. They should be an integral aspect of the scenario. In Imp1870, trade is essential. The units themselves are cheap, the payoff is huge, and the rewards are tangible. . . which neatly mimics the nature of the period. In AoI, the map itself is a focus on the Med sea, the trade units are cheap, and the tech tree is super-extended, with only a few tangible rewards. If a civ wants to the SPECIALIZE in trade, ala the Italians or Aragonese, then it can work. In John Ellis' Colonies IV, the trade units are only available halfway through the tree, and are otherwise only generated via events . . . which also neatly mimics the period of mercantilism. In short, if trade units are integrated into the scenario in a thoughtful, historically accurate way, there shouldn't be a problem. If you don't want players to engage in hyper-trading, cut them or place them via events. If you want players to do so, give them very good reasons why they should, and be aware of the consequences of a player going full tilt with trade. In other words TWEAK your scenario BEFORE you release it. There is NO substitute for adequate playtesting. If Aggy trades like a fiend, and this isn't what you want from the scen, CHANGE it so that he can't. (Ok, this COULD be construed as a criticism of Curt's approach to scenario construction. It's not, Ciaran. lol. It's a general statement---you're a Maestro ).

Side question; Aggy, have you run roughshod over any of mine? I am a super-aggressive trader when I play the heavy trade scenarios. I can't imagine someone trading more aggessively than I do. How do mine stand up for you?

[AGRICOLA]

@Boco & Techumseh
Apologies for not including El Aurens and Market-Garden in an earlier list of excellent scens where one does not need to bother with freights but can enjoy a nice, simple fight.

@Exile
Sorry, I haven't had the opportunity to try them. I have a very large folder of downloaded scens, but the designers at Poly have been keeping me too busy to play them. It takes me 2-3 weeks to playtest a scen but I'll give one a go ASAP.

@Werd100
Meadow muffin = ******** (aka pile of bovine droppings)
Horse puckey = please use your imagination

@Tigey
I don't want to prolong the cheesy business but I do think that as long as designers know exactly what I'm doing, they can decide whether they need to close some loophole or weakness that I'm exploiting. For that reason, they all get game saves and a turn by turn Operational Summary of what happened.


The following is the July 1943 entry in the DICTATOR VI OPSUM. Curtsibling received it 5 days ago.

TURN 026 . . . . . . 1943 JUL . . . . . . .[ 52 ]

*** NEW YORK CAPTURED . . . . . WALL STREET LOOTED

*** KARAGANDA CAPTURED

German forces continued to fight a highly successful defensive campaign in North Africa.
In Russia, excepting the odd Partisan, there are no Russian units west of Karaganda. Karaganda was captured as a staging area for the offensive to capture Irkutsk and then Vladivostok.
In North America, massive German Panzer forces overwhelmed the Americans defending New York. Adequate forces moved into New York for an immediate attack on Boston.

o New York - 8 defenders, 156 gold
o Karaganda - 2 defenders, 50 gold


o Failed American attacks cost them 2 BB and 1 DD at Casablanca; a Bomber at Ottawa; and 5 Fighters, 1 Inf and a Field Arty at Toronto.
Subsequent German counterattacks destroyed 4 Subs at Algiers; 2 DD at Casablanca; 2 Fighters and 1 Field Arty at Toronto; and 1 Inf and 4 Tanks at New York. It was another bad month for the Americans.

o The Brits lost a CA and a Tank at Casablanca and a DD at Valletta.
German attacks destroyed a Partisan in the Balkans. The 2 defenders in London were killed.

o The Russians lost a Partisan unit that attacked Rzhev.
In continuing clearing operations, German forces destroyed 3 Red Army units and 1 Tank.


o The Strait of Messina, the Strait of Sicily and the passage between Sardinia and Sicily are blocked. The Channel is blocked at Amsterdam, and the fighter trap continues to operate off London. Both entrances to the Baltic Sea are blocked. The land crossing at the Bosporous has been blocked.

o 12 Freights were delivered for a total of 7332 gold: 3 Freights to Baku for 1883 gold and 9 to London for 5449 gold.

31 Freights, 31 Tigers and 3 Me-262 are u/c. 31 Tiger II, 3 Me-262, 3 Banks, 9 Airports, 4 Solar Plants, 4 Factory, 2 Manuf. Plants are being RB. Over 10,000 gold was spent on rush building this month.

Taxes/Science/Luxuries are set at 80 / 10 / 10.
Treasury = 2,906 gold
Net cash flow = 2,879 gold
Discovered Rocket Fighter
Researching Logistics
Tech / 11 Turns [329]


Curt can obviously see that I'm trading like there is no tomorrow and has the option of changing freights to caravans and/or giving some civs a couple of the techs that reduce bonuses. Also, from the game save, he can tell that Germany has 5 times as many Tiger II tanks (150+) as any other unit and that none have been lost. It's his call whether the unit is too strong and whether its specs, and those of similar American, British and Russian units, need to be changed.



@All
Has anybody thought about who actually buys the city improvements that are sold? Here's one possibility.

From the Red Front 1.5 OPSUM, winter of 1941-42:

The winter cold must have frozen the Germans’ brains as well as their feet. They did not bother to reoccupy Sevastopol. That’s another 166,000 rubles for our treasury, 46k from taxes and 120k from selling the city’s Sewer System to a neutral Turkish trader who dismantled the system and is freighting it to a sewer-less Turkish city. The Herrenvolk who recapture Sevastopol had better start getting used to outhouses in a hurry.


EDIT
I completely forgot to mention the results of a quick test.

Originally posted by Tigey
Imagine the fun/satisfaction of your whole war effort depending on successfully navigating a Japanese convoy across the Indian ocean, and then the Cape of Good Hope, in a desperate attempt to get vital "war supplies" to Germany, evading the Royal Navy/US fleet all the way: thrilling! I can just hear the Red October theme playing now!

The travel time for a Japanese freighter (Mv=12) from Tokyo to Hamburg is 19 turns, or a year and a half. Thrilling? Definitely. But maybe a mite long to be of any practical use in a relatively short scen.

[Boco]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
@Boco & Techumseh
Apologies for not including El Aurens and Market-Garden in an earlier list of excellent scens where one does not need to bother with freights but can enjoy a nice, simple fight.

[Boco trolls and distorts Agricola's meaning] I'm crushed. My aim for EA was to make it a fight, but not simplistic! [/Boco trolls and distorts Agricola's meaning]

Exile has hit it on the head. If trade is included in your design, you should test it with a strategy that places trade above all else. There's an analogous argument with engineers that I learned in a recent beta. Assume that a player will build a ton of them.

[kobayashi]

Now that we have the unit generation routine out of the way, does anyone want to offer opinions as to what are the best unit settings for the transport vessel for the desired AI behavior? (you now, like naval superiorty? attack role but zero attack factor?)

In plain civ the galleon can attack and transport while most other transports just transport. It seems to me if the AI transport can attack, it will before its marines land unless it just happens to end its turn next to land. So more often than not it makes a futile attack which kills its passengers. However, giving the transport an attack factor will make it much more likely to go to the right part of the map.

I'm asking cause I'm retrofitting the loaded transport generator into Dainichi Sekei Taisen currently.

[EZRhino]

I've tried giving ships attack 1, naval superiority role, and submarine; it seems to work quite well in getting a civ to mount long distance amphibious attacks. However, once unloaded, or in the case of ships that started out at sea with nobody to readily available load, they just hover indefinitely outside enemy coastal cities
This wouldn't be so bad if a scenario started with lots of units, I guess, but in a scenario where everybody starts off pretty small there may be plenty of action for the first few turns but then everything is quiet until the ai can build more ships...

[kobayashi]

that's roughly what I'm doing now except I also put i in one of the extra unit slots so it makes an abandon ship sound (i.e. when it comes across one of your ships and attacks foolishly) instead of a torpedo sound.