Operation: Downfall

[Patine]

Truth be told, I need a break from my old, half-finished projects (which I intend to revisit when I have new inspirations and ideas for them; but I'm dry right now), so I need something fresh and new. Boco's consideration of Operation: Coronet inspired him, so I PM'd him and asked if he'd mind if I took a crack at it. His last post implies it's a green light to proceed. I've always liked the Pacific Theatre of WW2, far more than the European one, and I feel this still has untapped dimensions. However, I was getting frustrated at making the whole thing work on a grand strategic level. So I'm taking a breather to pursue this.

OPERATION: DOWNFALL
After the success of Okinawa, the US Joint Chiefs of Staff planned the biggest amphibious invasion ever conceived in serious military consideration: Operation: Downfall; the invasion of the Japanese Home Islands, a land mass never successfully invaded in recorded history. There were two operations, Operation: Olympic, to capture southern Kyushu in Nov, '45, and Operation: Coronet, to capture the area around Tokyo in March, '46. I would also cover Operations: Ketsugo and Ten-Go, the Japanese counter-plans. I'm thinking I'll make this for a US player, as AI amphibious warfare is difficult to manage at best, but, if that and a good set of victory conditions can be arranged, I may make a Japanese version for a much tougher fight. Any thoughts or comments?

[McMonkey]

I am glad you have decided to give this a go as I was excited to see Boco was considering it. Excellent 'what if' material.

I have some excellent maps of the American plans that I can scan and send to you. My advice would be to create a large map of Japan and make the game fairly long. Keep the terrain quite rugged, not too much flat ground. I liked your use of suburbs for the cities in the Korean scenario and these would look amazing for Tokyo etc...

I would avoid extending the map too far and keep it focused on Japan plus Korea and a small part of Manchuria and SE Siberia.

I don't know how you feel about building maps but I love it! If you want I could build a map for you so you can work on other aspects. If you enjoy building them then tell me to sod off!!! I would really love to build one of Japan though.

Now I come to think of it there was a pretty good one already made by Darth Veda for his Sengoku Jidai scenario. I am sure it sould be adapted to fit your scenario using map editor.

Oh, and making it US player only is the only way forward I think!

Best of luck with this project.

[AGRICOLA]

@Patine
Your post started me thinking about whether the U.S. would actually have carried out the invasions once it had successfully used the A-bomb.

The Americans own estimates of their probable casualties from invading Japan are horrifying. I rather suspect that Truman would have had no qualms and no choice about dropping more bombs as they became available. To do anything else would have been inconceivable to a nation that well remembered Pearl Harbor.

When I was a nipper of 13 or 14, my parents rented a house whose owners had subscribed to TIME magazine and stored neat bundles of issues from 1938 to 1946 in the attic. I hauled them down and systematically read my way through them. The savage propaganda depictions of Japanese in cartoons and ads can best be summed up by 'The only good Jap is a dead Jap'. They would not have thought twice about killing millions in order to save American lives.

[McMonkey]

@Agricola

I agree with you about the US not hesitating to drop the A-Bomb. Even if they had not had had the bomb they could have reduced Japan to rubble with their B-29 air armada and Japan could do little to stop them.

I see this scenario as an excellent example of alternative history. What if the A-Bomb was not developed? Would the Japanese have surrendered eventually as US conventional bombing took its horrendous toll on life? Would the Japanese have fought to the last as they had done at Okinawa and Iwo Jima?

One thing is certain. The US military did draw up the plans for an invasion and the opportunity to play it makes me very excited!

One excellent source for this debate would be 'More What if?' edited by Robert Cowley, an excellent little book where eminent Historians imagine what might have been (ISBN 0-330-48725-6). I know some historians shy away from such debates but I think they are the stuff of Civ II scenarios!

Sorry to butt in before Patine has had a chance to answer himself!

[EZRhino]

Russia's declaration of war against Japan also probably figured into Truman's decision to drop the bomb. A post-war Soviet Japan or even Soviet Manchuria would have changed the face of the new cold war that was already starting to brew in early 1945, half a year before v-j day. The Atom bomb gave Truman what was apparently the most overwhelmingly decisive option for a quick end to the war. Even still had Hatanaka's coup been successful the war might've dragged on despite the bomb

[Patine]

@Werd100: I'm pleased to see your interest! I'd be pleased and honored if you'd draw me a Japan map, given the quality of your Europe, South Vietnam, and Balkan maps, by the looks of them. I did plan a real slog for this one, so be warned!

@AGRICOLA and EZRhino: I know the bomb was the more attractive option to the US at the time; I'm just assuming, for the sake of 'What If' that it's not available (perhaps a series of 'mishaps' at Los Alamos or something). But I certainly see the reasons they were preferred at the time as a quick end to the war.

[McMonkey]

@Patine

Super. I will start work on it tommorow when I get access to a photocoper. I really enjoy creating the maps and they inspire many of my ideas while I am building them.
What sort of scale were you looking for? Something in the region of Darth Vedas one or something a bit more modest? Do you want to include more land than I mentioned earlier? I would imagine that just enough of Siberia to allow for Vladivostock and a few other strong Soviet cities would work, also they would probably have carved up Korea by 1st November 1945.

I will scan a copy of the map I have of Operations Olympic and Cornet too.

[McMonkey]

My scanner is so crappy but I think this turned out ok in the end. Had to save it as Jpeg to fit it on site. If you zoom in you should be able to read most of the info. I can send a larger copy or PNG if you need it!

[Patine]

I'd probably say the Japanese Home Islands, Korea, Okinawa, South-Eastern Manchuria, and the vicinity of Vladivostock, at a decently detailed scale, should be good. Also, could you please use a terrain, like say Glacier, for 'urban' terrain, where appropriate? Thanks greatly!

[Patine]

Those scanned maps should prove fairly useful. Thanks.

[McMonkey]

Not a problem. I will let you know how it is going as I go along. I will use Korea scn. as a guide for urban areas unless you tell me otherwise.

One question? Sakhalin. If you want it included I can do it but I would argue against it for the following reasons:

1. Including it would mean including a vast area of Manchuria and Siberia too. Very time consuming to build compared to Japan.

2. The important Russian thrust, had it come, would have been directed at Hokkaido (potential for WWIII in Japan when the US-USSR meet!) and a northern invasion could be launched from the southern tip of Sakhalin!
If Operation Olympic starts in November 1945 the Soviets would already have Sakhalin so leaving it out would do little harm, especially as it has no major cities!

Up to you

[civ2units]

I didn´t know that the Americans really planned an invasion on Japan.
I´ve read long times ago that they had so many losses if they conquered Japan. So they decided to use the atomic bombe and never thought about the Japanese civilians.

My idea is to use two maps, one covered the Tokyo area and the another southern Kyushu. You don´t need complete Japan and can simulate a city combat.

[techumseh]

Just 4 days ago you anounced you were setting aside EotRS and Korean War to concentrate on Alien Invasion. Now this. With all due respect Patine, it's not fair to those who you ask to do work to help you.

[Patine]

I'll be honest, Techumseh, I feel next to no inspiration or enthusiasm right now for Alien Invasion at the moment. I didn't receive much of a response when I announced I was going back to it, either. Please understand, I have the utmost respect for those who help me, and I do plan to finish this one (actually, I plan to finish them all). I don't mean to look indecisive, but I was in a difficult period scen-wise where conflicting ideas are weighed, but I have settled on this one. I hope you'll all offer your support, as I plan to see this through.

[McMonkey]

I have read the other thread thread before coming here and I can see what Techumseh means. I can see your side too. If you got no response about the Alien Invasion scenario seems wise to put it to one side, especially if you are not 100% motivated.

My offer to build the map still stands, as it happens I had thought of doing this scenario myself one day and it seemed like a lazy way for me to see it done, let someone else do the hard work!

I would enjoy building the map anyway but I can see many challenges with this scenario like the ones faced with EotRS and Korea and I think you may be in a better possition to start Downfall if you finish them first!

Just my humble opinion. If you want to start this now then I don't mind making the map, its up to you.