The Vietnam War development thread

[McMonkey]

ToT

I just read my last post and realised what I put could be misunderstood. Just to clarify, the naff graphics/system I was refering too was Vanilla ToT and not Techs excellent patch!

Agri
I have dropped into the Cave before mainly to plunder graphics, I have a huge horde that I could never hope to use!?
Some of the tools look very interesting. What I need to do is spend an afternoon working out Batch Files, Civ City and all the other utilities I have been too frightened to work out!

Why did they bother making 3-d graphics for CivII? Or for 3/4 for that matter. It does not make the game more realistic, how many armies out there concist of two mile tall men? Surely one of the best things about the game is that 'normal' people like myself can modify it!
Sorry, I've been ranting like that all day!

Gareth
Now I have got started on Techs Warlords scenario and rearranged the windows it is all looking a bit more farmiliar, not such a big difference really!

With the units I quite understand if I go to the back of the que, to be in the que at all is very exciting! I can't wait to see the Thirty Years War units you are making for Battosi, will there be a plump Gustavus amongst them?

I am still quite a long way off completion, well I'm slogging through the map still, and I intend to ask a few people to playtest it before its release so there is loads of time. I hope you don't mind me modifying some of your infantry units, what is the procedure with signatures? I do not want to take any credit but at the same time I don't want to offend by leaving your sig on any shocking cut and paste jobs!

Ta

[techumseh]

I have a patch?

[Boco]

21 of them! Just google "tecumseh patch" images.

[techumseh]

I have a council?

[fairline]

Re: ToT

Originally posted by Werd100
Gareth
Now I have got started on Techs Warlords scenario and rearranged the windows it is all looking a bit more farmiliar, not such a big difference really!

With the units I quite understand if I go to the back of the que, to be in the que at all is very exciting! I can't wait to see the Thirty Years War units you are making for Battosi, will there be a plump Gustavus amongst them?

Don't get too excited; I'm notoriously slow in completing requests

[fairline]

Originally posted by Boco
21 of them! Just google "tecumseh patch" images.

I have a camp!

Isn't that a racoon rather than a cat? Nevertheless, I'll be stitching it on me cub scout shirt asap

[techumseh]

Unfortunately, I think it's supposed to be a skunk. Thank you, Dave.

[McMonkey]

Originally posted by fairline


Don't get too excited; I'm notoriously slow in completing requests

No sweat Mr F! I may well become notoriously slow at finishing scenarios!

I am having fun trying to get into editing ToT. I have a few problems/queries that I'm sure have been enquired about 100 times before but what the hey!

1. If I move the Test of Time folder out of Program Files and onto the desktop will it still run? I hate having to go through 10 folders to get to the files!

2. I have sussed editing the terrain gif but found that (unlike mge) saving the game, editing the graphics and then reloading the saved game crashes ToT! Is this normal? Can it be avoided? I hope it can as I don't want to finish all the graphics before I start building the scenario!!!

3. I did not get a manual with my copy of ToT and am wondering why there is Terrain 1, 2 and 3?

4. What does Build Transporter mean (+) ? I take it its not to do with a charecter from a dodgy Guy Ritchie kung fu film!

5. At the bottom of the rules file there is text about @CIVILIZE2, @LEADERS2, @Initial settings, @SOUNDS and @RIVERS?
I am obviously a complete novice, what do these mean?

6. Lastly, what are the Advanced unit fields all about and do they work?

Apologies for my ignorance, your assistance would be much appreciated.

Toodaloo

PS. I have attached a screenshot of the map in progress, I like the way roads and terrain shows up in ToT!

[Boco]

I'll take a quick shot. Hope I understood your questions.[list=1][*]Might be easier to set up a shortcut to the folder on the desktop[*]Abnormal. Sounds like a bad GIF format (should be 87a noninterlaced, IIRC). You're better editing terrainx.bmp in \Original and saving it to your scenario folder.[*]Two terrain files per map. 1-4 maps per scenario or game.[*]Transporter terrain improvements are one of three ways to hop between maps. The others are transporter city improvements and native transport ability. More later.[*]Using Civilize2 and Leaders2 by Cam Hills and William Keenan
@INITIAL_SETTINGS (AFAIK) instructs the AI about what default units to build on each map.
@SOUNDS assigns wav files to each unit type.
@RIVERS assigns the name given to river terrain on each map.[*]Too time-consuming for this post. Who will step up to the plate for this one?[/list=1]

Fairline, I didn't even catch that!

Um Tech...must be a coincidence that I picked this patch of 21!

[McMonkey]

Cheers Boco

I have started working my way through things to see how they work, will get there eventually. I was so cosy with MGE and now I feel like a beginner again.

The shortcut makes sense, will try to apply the other suggestions too. I'm not very technical mind!

One thing I did achieve tonight was downloading Mercators supurb MapEdit utility. One thing it does not do (unless I am being dumb) is turn the map through 90 degrees, something that would be useful for my Vietnam map. I quite like it the way it is but I guess N-S is traditional. I just made it this way as I could make a bigger map (I deleted the terrain of Imperial 1870) and I knew of no other way of creating a 32,000sq map to other dimentions. If anyone knows how I could rectify this without having to start over please let me know!

I have attached a screenshot I made with Merc's mapedit. It shows the highlands better. I have not added all the valleys yet!

[McMonkey]

New concept

I have had a new brainwave. Instead of the US starting the game in control of cities like Da Nang I will give them all to the ARVN. One of the objectives will be for the ARVN to keep possession of their own (Objective) cities. The ARVN is an AI ally kept in tow by tribute/support money given to it by the US player. This money will come from an event for that specific purpose!
The US player will start off shore (The World!) and will be liked by transports and static/invulnerable Carriers. Events will prompt the player to build bases (engineers + grid refs will be provided in appropriate areas). This way the US player will build its strength in South Vietnam gradually and eventually these bases can be destroyed (with prior warning and by changing terrain under them) to represent the US withdrawal. US air power can still operate from carriers etc...

The game will be scored by how many objectives are retained (ARVN cities) and the 'Body Count' which will award the player for every dead communist and minused for every dead US unit.

I am not entirely sure how to make the scoring work yet. Some of it will be down to the player to judge (I.e. Do the ARVN still hold Saigon / Hue / Da Nang etc...) and the reward will be knowing you have saved the day. I know thats a bit lame but my brainwaves only last for a short time and normally happen when there are no pens around!

Your thoughts would be appreciated

[Boco]

Re: New concept

Originally posted by Werd100
The US player will start off shore (The World!) and will be liked by transports and static/invulnerable Carriers.

If you want to distinguish between carrier and land aircraft, give the land aircraft the trireme flag. Then place airbases (aircraft carriers) at sea away from land.

Propping up an AI ally sounds like a novel concept! If you can get AI vs AI combat to work well, you'll have a gem.

[Case]

Re: New concept

I really like the idea of seperating the South Vietnamese from the US/'Free World' forces. This will neatly capture the coordination difficulties which greatly hampered the war effort. Moreover, it gives you options such as enabling the US to build ARVN units as they shift the war strategy towards building the capacity of the ARVN.

I'm not sure about whether forcing the US player to build bases in their historic locations is such a good idea though. Historically, the US's logistic structure in South Vietnam was centred on a relatively small number of massive bases, and this had its pros and cons (eg, the benefits of centralisation vs the considerable distances between bases and combat zones and the proliferation of units which never left US bases). You could let the player chose how many bases to build and where to put them by giving them a small number of engineers and letting them build more (at very considerable expense) if they'd like more bases.

[Boco]

If you give the AI lots of money, does it use it to build units? I've read there's a unit-count threshold above which the AI doesn't build units. If you were below this threshold, however, does the AI immediately build units, or does it hoard the money?

One the other hand, you could use CityProduction triggers with CreateUnit actions. Every time the AI builds an improvement, a particular kind of unit is created. You'd be a little limited on location for the new unit, though.

[McMonkey]

Boco
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I like the idea about the Carriers, I may use it in the VC version. I think static/invulnerable carriers will act like stepping stones between the world and Vietnam. As the communists had no real navy I do not see the point of trying to represent naval warfare. The main reason I don't want moving carriers is to stop them sailing up the Mekong river which is the job of the MRF which the player will research as the game goes on. I will make normal transports too vulnerable for this role!

Another idea I have had is static battleships with an event that creates artillery shells (missiles) on them. These shells can then be used for shore bombardment.

I will make the Communists very aggressive through events and stats. They will have secure bases in Laos and Cambodia as well as some villages in the south. The borders will be defined by (static / invulnerable / neutral) border posts that US ground troops cannot pass but the VC can (Ignore ZOC).

The Communists will also be assisted by the Ho Chi Minh trail, an invisible RR that links their base camps in Cambodia and Laos and has many tendrils that allow the AI to move units up to the border easily. I figure the computer can tell there is a RR network weather it can 'see' it or not! Hope that makes sense!

I'm not sure what the AI will do with all that 'friendship' money. Will have to playtest it.The idea of the payments is to stop the ARVN attacking the US and to keep it allied. If anyone has any ideas on how to keep two sides allied then let me know, I know you can keep two sides at war by stopping them from negotiating!

Would you be able to post an example of this event as I don't quite understand how it works! Sound good though.

Case
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I did not want to create an obvious scenario, this may be a hard one to get working but I think it will be worthwhile. I did start on this a couple of years ago and got quite far but the map was too small and the player could have won with armour. I may make armour events only anyway! Vietnam was not a 'normal' war so I have been doing a lot of lateral thinking. I did not want the player to be able to win by grabbing all the cities. There will be a bit of a plot to follow but I would like to leave a lot up to the individual.

I like the idea of representing Vietnamization, especially when the US withdrawal begins. Unit obsolescence will help make this work.

I will be including an Australian contingent in the Long Tan / Vung Tau area under the control of the US player. The Koreans will be an independent allied nation and control Dinh Binh province which includes Nha Trang and Cam Ranh. The withdrawal should not affect the ROK so much as I believe the Koreans stayed in Vietnam until 1973!

With regards to the placement of US bases, I totally see and agree with your point. I do not want to dictate to the player, after all the point of the game is to alter history and not repeat others mistakes. What I will do is a compromise! The US will be instructed early on to found bases in locations such as Da Nang, Cam Ranh, Saigon and My Tho in the Delta. After that the smaller bases locations can be decided by the player to suit their strategy! Part of the fun of Civ is building your empire. I like to try and represent history but allow alternatives to be followed, this scenario can have the best of both worlds!

One thing I will be using a lot are 'air settlers'. I will post more about them in a bit.