My latest savegame...

[jez9999]

Well I'm new here and saw someone else posting their savegame so I thought I'd do the same. I'm a Civ2 addict and have been playing for ages. I think I've got quite good at playing but there's always lots more to learn.

A couple of things I've always wondered:
Is there a way to fortify, or at least permanent-sleep ships? It's really annoying them becoming active when an enemy boat comes into view.
Is there a way to become big, powerful and liked by the computer opponents? I always seem to face the same choice; remain small, relatively powerless and unable to compete with the other civs when building my spaceship if I want them to like me, or grow large and have them always 'icy' or just plain out attacking me unless I donate virtually every tech / bit on money I've got. Those opponents sure are the jealous type.

[jez9999]

Oops, forgot to attach the savegame. Here it is.

[atawa]

Looks like you're doing allright.

3 more steps to victory:

* Build suntsu so you'll have vet clads
* Next tech Demo and fundi
* Kill everyone

There is no way to fortify ships at sea unfortunately.

Did you ever try playing in rep and trading caravans?

[jez9999]

No, my usual ultimate government type that I aim for is always communism. I'm not sure why people here don't seem so hot on that. Fundamentalism cripples your science, no-go for me. Communism is as good as monarchy (3 units martial law, no unhappy people because of units away from home, etc.) but NO corruption. :-D Why isn't this usually the best government type?

(nothuing like the real life communist countries, of course!)

Oh, as for your 'kill everyone' idea, i think I'll have some major problems finishing the Spanish and French. They're pretty strong already and aren't on my continent, which makes it way harder to get military units to them.

[Ecthy]

Republic and Demo have that huge trade bonus that kills communism's corruption lack (demo has even that).

As far as reputation among Civs goes, the strongest is never really "liked", but it doesn't matter since they can't hurt you.

[jez9999]

Sure, so communism is about as good at trade because of the zero corruption. But with communism I don't have the dumb civil unrest because my units are out waging war, so it's still better than democracy or republic...

[Elephant]

There are greater benefits to Rep/Dem that outweigh Comm's military features, and there are ways to organize your unit support in Rep/Dem so that it causes little or no unrest. The two biggest benefits of Rep/Dem are Trade and Celebration Growth. Trade is a very powerful tool that the AI does not use very well, and that extra trade arrow multiplies quickly if your cities are larger (but if you play ICS with small cities it does not help you very much). The impact on a Super Science/Trade City is incalculable. Using the extra trade arrows you can nullify your unrest problems with a few wonders and 10-20% of Lux, and a robust trading network will bring in tons of gold and beakers. Celebration Growth is unique to Rep/Dem, and with the right infrastructure can quickly double or triple the size of your empire. This game has far more complexity than just warfare...

As to your questions, the "problem" of ships waking when an enemy unit moves adjacent is actually a benefit, since there is no way to "fortify" (ie, "dig in", which makes no sense at sea) so you will likely be attacked next turn. It also keeps them from sneaking past you if you are using them as look-outs. I can't imagine wanting to sleep-and-forget a ship - if it's unneeded, disband it in a city to build something more useful.

There is something built into the AI's way of thinking that they tend to dislike you more the bigger you get. That tries to keep the game balanced and challenging, since if you could be pals with all the civs and also become the biggest you would quickly win the game without opposition. Think about how it would be if you were playing human players - the more of a threat you are by your size, the more they are going to oppose you winning. There is a difference between 2.42 and MGE in AI attitudes, though - diplomatic relations are nearly impossible in MGE if you are any bigger than a One City civ. Someone debugged that part of the logic once and said that the "attitude" variable that the AI keeps is reset to "hostile" at the beginning of each turn, even if you gifted them a ton and they were Enthusiastic the previous turn. The 2.42 does not reset, but there are a few points when attitude seems to go downhill (like becoming Supreme and being the first to launch a spaceship).

[jez9999]

Obviously I'd still like to _see_ enemy units go by, just as I can see them with a regular fortified ground unit. But, likely to be attacked next turn? Hardly. The vast majority of vessels that go by are friendly computer players annoyingly moving their ships around, apparently because they're bored...

[Elephant]

Sometimes the AI cannot figure a way to get around a particular land formation, so their ships just go back and forth. If you see this, don't park a ship nearby because it will go on forever.

Personally I like to see AI ships going by because I'm always on the lookout for a NONE-bribe opportunity. The AI ship needs to be far enough away from it's capital that it does not cost too much, but closer to another city than to one of yours (so it does not get assigned support from your city). A $150-200 Galleon or Transport is a pretty good deal, especially if you are playing One City and you can disband a supported one. Even better is to see one drop a Settler or Engineer on an island and bribe it before it makes a city.

[Verrucosus]

Regarding the question of Communism, I often think I'm neglecting that form of government. Personally, I'm a big friend of representative governments for all the reasons given by Elephant. However, I usually seek a space race victory.

I do wonder if there is a case for Communism when you seek global domination and end up with lots of cities, as jez9999 seems to. Communism is the only form of government that doesn't get additional unhappiness with a rising number of cities. The amount of luxuries required under a 50-city-Democracy (four additional unhappy people per city on Deity?) just to get the additional unhappiness under control could - when spent under Communism - be enough to send most of the cities that count into celebration and generate the additional trade arrow. If that could be pulled off, Communism would be competitive. There is still Democracy's ability to explode a celebrating city's population and its immunity to bribery, but Communism's flexibility in military deployments, martial law and veteran spies might be just as useful in a given situation.

I seem to remember a discussion about celebrating Communism in the long ago, but I couldn't find it in the library and I've never tried it myself on a large scale. (I only got this game eight years ago ... you can't expect me to know how it works in every aspect.)

[Bloody Monk]

Verrucosus,

Good points. Commy Gov't, especially celebrating, is a fun way to play. Vet Spies are very cruel to the AI. However there is one misstatement...

Communism is the only form of government that doesn't get additional unhappiness with a rising number of cities.

You forget Fundy I think. Under Fundy Gov't UN-happiness is not allowed, ever. There are many fine advantages from running Hard Fundamentalism, especially if it is celebrating: Tithes, Fanatics (& revival of the 20 line for rush-buying), great loads of cash from high taxes (no point to more than 10% Science--Get Advances from Trade generated Beakers.), and did I mention no Happiness problems. Celebrating Fundy has everything!! Except Vet Spies...and the Population explosions of Representative Gov'ts. But everything else...mostly.

I think it is part of the charm of this game that it offers so many varied Governments, each with their special advantages.

Monk

[Peaster]

Jez; You are doing OK. I guess you plan on a spaceship victory rather than conquest ? If so, your priority should be getting beakers for faster science. You don't need your 1000g reserve - spend it! There are two main approaches to beakers:

1) Create a super-science city (SSC); with all the improvements and science wonders you can make there. Rome is making 14 beakers per turn, but it could be making over 500. And/or...

2) Overseas trade. I notice you have only 5 boats, mostly empty. You need more, plus some caravans to put on them (or maybe some existing units to pop the remaining huts).

Both of these ideas will probably work out better when you get past monarchy to almost anything else (but don't mix the SSC idea with Fundy!). Also, you might prefer to be at peace with the AI civs.
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But I usually play for conquest instead of spaceships. If you are interested in warfare, I would also suggest

* Monotheism (crusaders + Mike's) is a great early tech. But in 1300AD may be too late, now that the AI's have musketeers.

* Many players consider diplomats the strongest unit in the game. Why not make a few ? You might make some cannons too, to allow more attacking options.

* You don't need more city walls, or more musketeers (54 already) for defense. You have good roads and should attack, or bribe, any AI units that threaten you. Or even make peace, in an emergency.

* You have 21 cities (which is OK for a spaceship game) but I would use your 10 settlers to make more. Then you can support a bigger army+navy, have more trade options, etc.

Not sure what difficulty level you are playing, but you might need a happiness wonder (such as Mike's) with that extra growth. A wonder is usually more efficient than making temples and coloseums.

* I like to build Marco Polo ASAP (for maps and tech trades), but it is not 100% necessary, and you seem to be doing OK without it. I also prefer SunTzu over Leo's, but that choice is also debatable.

[Verrucosus]

As I said earlier, my own way of playing usually does not give me a big enough empire to experiment along these lines, but I'd be interested in learning whether and how those who like jez9999 end up with large empires make use of the celebration mechanism.

Monk was quite correct in pointing out that I did forget about Fundamentalism. Please let me clarify:

What I meant to say was that Communism is the only form of government where the basic unhappiness in the city is unaffected by the number of cities in the empire. This is not the case with any other form of government including Fundamentalism where the additional cities beyond a certain limit cause additional unhappiness in the first line of the happiness analysis.

It's true that this fact is completely immaterial for purposes of civil disorder because any remaining unhappiness is removed by the Fundamentalism - there is even a special line for this in the happiness analysis. However, if the order by which the various happiness factors are listed in the display is anything to go by, this happens only after the effect of luxuries is calculated. When we are talking about celebrations, this is quite crucial, because it means that we cannot rely on Fundamentalism to turn that half of the city content that we need to end up happy, but we have to spend valuable luxuries to get them content in the first place. Fundamentalism still helps us with the second half of the city where (unlike Communism) it does not depend on city improvements or martial law.

If these assumptions are correct, the comparison between Communism and Fundamentalism with respect to celebrating cities is as follows:
- The effect is the same - we get the additional trade arrow that brings us eye to eye with Democracy.
- Getting the first half of the city happy is easier for Communists because they have less unhappiness to start with (assuming a large empire).
- Getting the second half of the city content is easier ... well, actually a non-issue for Fundamentalists because of the Fundy bonus.
As long as the goal is just to get as much trade as a Democracy by celebrating, it would seem that Communism is more attractive the larger the empire gets because the more relevant its advantage in getting the first half of the population happy should become.

Unfortunately, this analysis gets turned upside down, once the empire gets big enough for those crazy "very unhappy" people to appear. They are so unhappy that (as a result of a glitch in the programme) they get happy from the first two luxuries you throw at them. Once you get there (and I suppose it can happen rather quickly on Deity), the advantage of Communism turns into a disadvantage because it prevents its regular unhappy people (caused by city growth) from turning into very unhappy people (as a result of more cities). At some point, Democrats and Fundamentalists have enough very unhappy citizens that they are better off paying two luxuries to turn them happy than the Communists who have to pay four luxuries for the regular unhappy guys they need happy for celebrating.

Anyway, I believe that there are situations when using the celebration mechanics to buy the additional trade arrow and the added advantages of Communism or Fundamentalism is an option to consider. It's just a problem - albeit a complex problem - of calculating the price.

Short question: When discussing the merits of Fundamentalism, Monk mentioned the "revival of the 20-line for rush-buying". I'm ashamed to admit I've never heard of it. Could you explain or point me somewhere to read it up?

Verrucosus

[edited grammar]

[Ell_man]

Caravans are the dominating civ2 like everyone says but the micromangement investment in them is huge. Whenever I play through a game where all I produce is caravans, it takes forever to play because I'm constantly trying to match up supply and demand and figuring out how to unlock commodities. How does one manage trade so it becomes not as micromangement intensive?

Trade in a large game is a nightmare to manage, and a 10 city ELG is really difficult too.

What do you take notes on during the game?

What are your goals in setting up repeatable trading commodities?

Do you try to setup a few cities early in the game so that you can ship them repeating commodities utilizing the wonder bread trick?

Maybe I just need to figure out how trading works in more detail. I've read Solo's guide and gone through the trading save game walkthrough but I still have trouble manipulating S+D.

[jez9999]

Thanks for the advice. I just completed the game, and ended up trashing the computer after turning to communism. It's particularly nice because the lack of corruption usually means I can switch to 80% science and still have enough trade to make a profit with tax.

Peaster: As for building yet more cities - the computer already _hated_ me by the time I posted this savegame. The more I built and captured, the more it hated me. It gets virtually impossible to do anything but all out war, I find. I wish the computer wasn't so stupid. I just basically ended up capturing a city, ceasefire, build up more units, insult computer, they declare war, I capture another city, etc. However a more 'intellectual' approach didn't really seem possible as the computer kept giving me unprovoked attacks. :-)

I wonder whether trade has anything to do with it. Does anyone know whether trading with computer cities actively makes that race like you more? What other factors go into the calculation of whether they will start getting 'Icy' or 'Hostile', assuming you haven't actually attacked them?

Originally posted by Verrucosus
As I said earlier, my own way of playing usually does not give me a big enough empire to experiment along these lines, but I'd be interested in learning whether and how those who like jez9999 end up with large empires make use of the celebration mechanism.

Sorry, I'm not sure what the celebration mechanism is; what is it? I'm new here. :-P