Just some things

[Scouse Gits]

and a note to vorlon_mi ...

In fundy (my favourite form of government) not only is Science reduced by a factor of 50% but although you can set the science slider higher than 50% it has no actual effect other than wasting your trade arrows - thus in fundy there is an absolute cap at 25% effective science - the most efficient way to 'research' in Fundy is to set the sliders at 3-0-7 Lux-Sci-Gold celebrate nearly everywhere and rush zillions of 'vans that make profitable trades - you need a few Eins to make the science tick over, but a decent celebrating fundy can easily make a science advance every two turns with this strategy.

Stu

[Ecthy]

What does celebrating in Fundy do? Republic economic effects like Com and Mon?

[Bloody Monk]

Adam Smith thoughts

Originally posted by defrancoj
First of all, When is it appropriate to build Adam Smith's (in single player, just playing for general success, if that makes any sense).

The answer to this question is found in your Maintenance Cost list (F5), in my opinion. It is a cost-benifit question based on break even analysis.

Adam Smith's Trading Company costs 400 shields. If you use 8 camels, rushed after one turn...well, let's don't go there--there's too many possiblities to be exact. Instead, let's stipulate that One Shield = ~2.5 Gold. (I think SlowThinker worked this out very nicely some time ago.)

So, ASTC costs ~ 1000 Gold.

ASTC gives you a pass on the per turn maintenance of (1G per turn White Goods). Add up the total charge for the 1G Improvements = X. However many times X goes into 1000 is the number of turns to break even. Do you have enough time left to make the build worthwhile??

Obviously, that answer will vary wildly depending on the way you play. For instance, I tend towards AC games in Democracy that empasize Science, limiting MilOps until after Launch--unless provoked. Based on that, here is an example.

The year is ~ 500AD. With Economics I have around 40 techs, 13 cities that each have from 3-5 1G Improvements = 42G Maintenance (that will benifit from ASTC.) ...making the breakeven date 24 turns, 980AD. Launch takes around 73 Techs or 33 more. In 500AD the pace was 2 turns, soon to be one; and after SuperHighways, many turns of 2 discoveries, making for ~ 33 turns for the 33 Techs.

So, in this case I have (33-24 = 9) turns to build and deliver the 8 camels needed; plenty of time. ASTC will breakeven a few turns (~5) before Launch and payoff 42G for each of the 15 or 21 turns waiting for Arrival.

Final Considerations

1) Time before Launch is much, much more important than the waiting for Arrival phase. After Launch is basically marking time. Those 5 turns are only worth 42X5 = 210G = ~80 Shields, an overall impact of only 1.6 Freights. Looked at solely on a before Launch consideration, those 8 camels (needed for ASTC) would be of greater impact if delivered or stored for parts. This is the Opportunity Cost.

2) If you are planning to spend significant time in Fundy the comparison gets worse. Remember that Temples do not have any Maintenance Cost in Fundy. It will be much longer to breakeven.

3) Building ASTC becomes much more viable if you haven't mastered one or two Techs per turn. At 2 turns each for the 33 Techs instead of one, the numbers become favorable.

Hopefully this will point you to thinking about the 'True Cost' of your decisions. Have fun.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

In general, I agree with Stu's conservative approach to building White Goods only when really necessary and helpful. But there are times...

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
snip
...what possible use are these enormous cities with their expensive aquaducts and sewer systems
Stu

Well, there is this to think about.... Larger cities mean:
--more trade arrows
--bigger trade routes per turn
--increased shields per turn

As to "...Colosseums? What are they? I suspect I have only ever built about half a dozen in all my years at this game. "

Like Temples, Colosseums are Maintenance free in Fundy and add +4 Tithes per turn. For a Fundyphile that would seem to be a good thing.

Monk

[rjmatsleepers]

What a lot of contributions in 24 hours!

My approach is to celebrate my SSC up to the maximum I can via Shakes and the luxury slider. This will often have a side effect of celebration in a few other cities. Since I want to return the slider to maximum science when the celebration is over, I often build coloseums in a couple of these (heartland) cities to enable them to function at size 7 or 8 (electricity dependent). These cities give me lots of shields (production). Apart from temples and later factories, I don't build any other white goods outside my SSC - I'd rather have the vans. On a good day I remember to sell the temple ater building Shakes.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Bloody Monk]

@defrancoj

We all develop strategies that suit our "tastes". If you limit city growth in most cities and spend a lot of time in Fundy, then Colosseums can be avoided. If you run a High-Science Democracy, then Colosseums are vital for keeping the Lux slider down.

Following on, because I tend to keep the tax slider off or nearly so, I rarely build MP except in the Cap and SSC--if I can get the cities to grow w/o them. Building a Courhouse instead-in the early going-reduces corruption/waste, and later on in Democracy, the CH makes a content soul Happy...again, reducing the need for Lux--> greater Science. Because of this thinking, I don't build Stock Exchanges as much as some might.

The key idea is--I believe--to build only what is necessary for your strategy and then only on a "just in time" framework. Cut down on 'sequence errors' and your results will improve.

An example of a sequence error...
In a few turns you will build The Flower Garden. One of your cities will revolt soon. Don't build a Temple if you have Martial Law slots open or can hire a Elvis.

Monk

[Scouse Gits]

OK BM - you've got me - I probably should build Colossea for the tithes - It simply never occurs to me to do so

Stu

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
What a lot of contributions in 24 hours!

Franco revived Civ2 General!!!

General Franco revived Civ2!!!

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Adam Smith's is a "nice to have" wonder, but not really necessary the way I play.

All ASTC does is replace cash. Cash is easy to come by - just deliver more Caravans. The games that I don't have ASTC are the ones when the AI is doing fairly well and I have the option to get 2 of Newton, Magellan, or Adam. I always go for the first 2 because their effects can't be duplicated with another improvement, and they produce something (science and speed) that is more valuable than cash.

More to the point re Adam... you probably shouldn't have a lot of the 1-g improvements (early Barracks, Markets, Libraries, Temples etc) to really make ASTC worthwhile until the late game. And by the late game, cash is not a concern.

I never build Colosseums. Maybe if I didn't always get the happiness wonders, I would. (And I'm seldom in Fundy until conquering time, and I'd rather build units than collect tithes at that point.)

[Straybow]

If you build a huge empire, 60+ cities, you can run into red face problems above size 12 even with HG, Mike, and Bach. Then you build Cols. If it weren't for the black face bug you'd need them alot sooner.

So many of you guys don't play a builder style game even when you think you are. The Rabid Aggressive Rodent comes out before you get that far.

I'm not happy until I have a heartland with cities maxed out , big trade cities on many continents , and about two Engineers at work per city . Some optimize existing cities, other prepare multi-special sites for new cities (never stop founding them).

[Straybow]

Oh, and by "maxed out" I mean the food limit (typically 30+ after Refrigeration). I usually only force growth to 36 for the Super Science City.

Likewise, "big trade city" means all tiles worked or close to it. Size 20 for a full city radius, a little less if crowded.

[Scouse Gits]

Guilty as charged - RAR

[vorlon_mi]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
and a note to vorlon_mi ...

In fundy (my favourite form of government) not only is Science reduced by a factor of 50% but although you can set the science slider higher than 50% it has no actual effect other than wasting your trade arrows - thus in fundy there is an absolute cap at 25% effective science - the most efficient way to 'research' in Fundy is to set the sliders at 3-0-7 Lux-Sci-Gold celebrate nearly everywhere and rush zillions of 'vans that make profitable trades - you need a few Eins to make the science tick over, but a decent celebrating fundy can easily make a science advance every two turns with this strategy.

Stu

Fascinating. I had not known about the cap. I would set
the science slider up to 70-80%, had hired some Einsteins,
and kept my tech lead, so I just assumed that it was all good.

I've been playing too much Civ3 lately, and so had forgotten the key idea that each 'van delivered
gives not only a bonus in cash but also a bonus in
*beakers*. In Civ3, of course, there are no 'vans

That's a good thing to keep in mind -- bursts of science
are more effective than steady-state (but capped)
science, esp. when you use cash to rush the caravans
or freights.

[Straybow]

I've been playing too much Civ3 lately

We forgive you. Repent, and return to your first love.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Straybow
If you build a huge empire, 60+ cities, you can run into red face problems above size 12 even with HG, Mike, and Bach. Then you build Cols. If it weren't for the black face bug you'd need them alot sooner.

So many of you guys don't play a builder style game even when you think you are. The Rabid Aggressive Rodent comes out before you get that far.

I'm not happy until I have a heartland with cities maxed out , big trade cities on many continents , and about two Engineers at work per city . Some optimize existing cities, other prepare multi-special sites for new cities (never stop founding them).

Well... by the time I have 60+ cities I'm usually running CfC and Suffrage on top of MC and JSB. And I seldom have problems growing my cities above size 12 - mainly because of multiple trade routes, Superhighways, Markets and Banks.

I guess I have a dislike of Colosseums because they don't, well, DO anything. Other than make people content. So I tend to build Markets, Banks, SH, and Wonders, and if I have unhappy faces, I'll throw Einsteins in during the celebration phase. Seems to work fine.