The Green (peace??) free-for-all succession game

[Scouse Gits]

For what it's worth ...

I agree that Hides must be a no-no - but wool is eco-friendly!
Oil seems fairly nasty as is Coal -- Uranium - dunno.

I think the limited utilisation of magneto drive hover trains should be permitted

Stu

[Elephant]

The poor little sheepies - cruelly corralled while nasty men rip their wooly warmth off them for their selfish desires to trade cashmere sweaters!

Supply Commodities:
Hides - definitely not!
Wool - ripped from sheep;
Beads - made from glass, which seems harmless, unless you need to cut down trees or mine coal to make fires...
Salt - mined from the earth, or desalination ponds, which disturb the natural seashore;
Copper - rarely found naturally, usually mining and smelting involved;
Dye - made by different methods, involving berries, treebark, and shellfish, but usually there are stinky boiling vats involved...
Cloth - cotton plantations meant slavery and soil depletion until the 19th century...
Coal - strip-mining;
Wine - whole valleys and hillsides converted to vineyards;
Silver - same as Copper;
Silk - if we're going to be concerned about noise pollution, why not worry about those poor silkworms?
Spice - could grow naturally, but plantation trouble already mentioned under Cloth;
Gems - similar to Copper;
Gold - similar to Copper;
Oil - a few natural pools, but usually found in difficult natural locations by drilling, roadbuilding and pipelining, and inevitably leads to nasty spills;
Uranium - mining issues, as well as waste disposal questions.

(I'm not an enviro-Nazi, just pointing out the potential issues...)

[StuporMan]

Ack! I did not mean to cause such a debate. I also did not mean to eliminate trade altogether, either. I just thought this could create an interesting caveaut.

Hmm, let me see if I have any answers for Elephant's opposition to some of the trade items.

Wool - Yes, it is taken from sheep, but it leaves them alive and people have been doing it successfully for millenia with no detriment to the sheep themselves

Beads - Yes fire is required, BUT wood can be harvested in environmentally-friendly ways. For instance, the wood that falls off the tree or trees that die of natural causes. Also, a small amount of tree harvesting helps prevent forest fires

Salt - Desalinization does not require fire at all, it can be done simply by allowing sea water to evaporate. The result is sea salt. 0 environmental impact provided we put any fish back in the ocean that might end up in our salt vats.

Dye - this goes back to my comment on fire. The fact that the vats will stink is a small price to pay for environmentally friendly trade!

Wine - we wouldn't necessarily have to convert entire hillsides, perhaps we could limit the amount we traded?

Cloth - As far as this game is concerned, slavery, though a despicable practice, is not an issue. Remember, we want to save the whales, not the humans. As to soil depletion, crop rotation ensures minimal soil depletion.

Spice - This is the other crop we could rotate ;-)

I think we should allow at least some of these at the players discretion. I think we can all agree the others would be no-no's.

StuporMan

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Elephant
The poor little sheepies - cruelly corralled while nasty men rip their wooly warmth off them for their selfish desires to trade cashmere sweaters!

Supply Commodities:
Hides - definitely not!
Wool - ripped from sheep;
Beads - made from glass, which seems harmless, unless you need to cut down trees or mine coal to make fires...
Salt - mined from the earth, or desalination ponds, which disturb the natural seashore;
Copper - rarely found naturally, usually mining and smelting involved;
Dye - made by different methods, involving berries, treebark, and shellfish, but usually there are stinky boiling vats involved...
Cloth - cotton plantations meant slavery and soil depletion until the 19th century...
Coal - strip-mining;
Wine - whole valleys and hillsides converted to vineyards;
Silver - same as Copper;
Silk - if we're going to be concerned about noise pollution, why not worry about those poor silkworms?
Spice - could grow naturally, but plantation trouble already mentioned under Cloth;
Gems - similar to Copper;
Gold - similar to Copper;
Oil - a few natural pools, but usually found in difficult natural locations by drilling, roadbuilding and pipelining, and inevitably leads to nasty spills;
Uranium - mining issues, as well as waste disposal questions.

(I'm not an enviro-Nazi, just pointing out the potential issues...)

Not sure if you guys expect a ruling from me on this (personally, I think there's a good chance that we will conquer the world long before Freight are available, like we always do. Recall that Corporation must be delayed as long as possible...).

If you DO want a ruling - I would say the barred goods would be Hides, Coal, Oil, and Uranium. Hides for the obvious reason, the other 3 because they are fuel for banned improvements/units (power plant, factory, cars, nuke plant, nuke sub).

In cases where the supply good changes at the same time as the Freight is built, and are only choices are barred goods: build a food 'van.

~Six

[Old n Slow]

Who's got the game? I may have some time tomorrow.

Let's see -- rules -- build where no one else wants to go -- but wait: can we build a city if we don't see all the spaces (only to find later that a specials was in fact within the radius?)

Only research nice techs (note that dips don't have a choice -- hint hint! )

Minimal roads and no RR (some of us may not be that aware of the optmal road network.)

No use of beasts (may want to 'dip' our way to building wonders -- a bit more expensive but faster than a one city method.)

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Old n Slow
Who's got the game? I may have some time tomorrow.

Let's see -- rules -- build where no one else wants to go -- but wait: can we build a city if we don't see all the spaces (only to find later that a specials was in fact within the radius?)

Only research nice techs (note that dips don't have a choice -- hint hint! )

Minimal roads and no RR (some of us may not be that aware of the optmal road network.)

No use of beasts (may want to 'dip' our way to building wonders -- a bit more expensive but faster than a one city method.)

Jump in, I don't think anyone has it... as for your points:

1. If you build a city without checking all squares in the radius, and it turns out a prohibited terrain special IS in the radius, the city must be starved and disbanded. Moreover, the offending special cannot be worked during the starvation process.

2. Yup, dips have no choice. Of course, there is the issue of stealing techs for units/improvements we can't build, thereby driving up our research costs. A bit of a tradeoff, that.

3,4. Yup.

[Elephant]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

If you DO want a ruling - I would say the barred goods would be Hides, Coal, Oil, and Uranium. Hides for the obvious reason, the other 3 because they are fuel for banned improvements/units (power plant, factory, cars, nuke plant, nuke sub).

In cases where the supply good changes at the same time as the Freight is built, and are only choices are barred goods: build a food 'van.

~Six

I can live with that. The most beneficial small-city commodity and the two highest-paying late-game commodities are out. I gather we have to pick up Copper, Gems and Gold from the invisible small streams around us. We will gently shear the sheep, use dead wood for making the beads, turn a selected few swamps into desalination ponds, and use natural grapes, berries and cotton plants.

[Old n Slow]

Weekend is effectively over -- if no one picks this up before hand, I'll run a few turns (10 -20 or so) tomorrow night. (smiley chosen for the green color.)

[Sharkbait]

I'd be keen to join if there is room...

[Old n Slow]

Going cleanly where no one else dares to go...

Scan around the area &

975 (1) -- Espy a hut to the north; Archer, Legion & western boat all look for trouble.

950 (2) -- Found Wood Lake on east end of small isle (able to forestall Big Mound from blowing up -- just happenstance in my case) (*Americans abandon Pyr)

925 (3) -- BM gets a warrior & worthwhile production resumes

900 (4) -- Pop the hut for 25 in coins.

875 (5) -- WK grows a settler -- start a road (closest road is determined to pass through the shielded grass where appropriate (hmmm are we allowed to raod through trees?)

850 (6) -- Discover BW; opt for Writing over Curr, HBR & Sea. Collect Wk Set & SL set & head for north isle

825 (7) -- (*Babs destroyed by Russians) Ced Creek grows a set; hut espied & land to teh NW espied as well.

800 (8) -- Tree forks builds a boat, switches to a Ph (not that we need the unit -- the plan for this is wonder fodder).

775 (9) -- (*Eygpt nearly completes Col.) Hmmm we think about this as we do love the Col. Looking around we could sacrifice a couple of folks...

750 (10) -- Egypt builds the Colossus; We use up a warrior and two settlers along with 44 in coins to grow the Hanging Gardens (yeah I did think about the switch, but felt that we could use HG...and could use it now.)

Found Dead Buffalo

Notes -- we do have some cash, also have our most powerful infantry off searching -- next player may want to consider a more efficient use (such as Barb protection) I think that Lil Big is a good site for wonders -- may want to build some dips (some day) to add to the future wonder -- my thought might be to "steal Poly"; later discover Mono & build Mike's.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Well done, grabbing HG. I'm gratified that the AI doesn't appear to be rolling over and playing dead - building WoWs ahead of us!

My intent is still to play a few turns over the next few days, if RL doesn't keep getting in the way. But anyone who wants to jump in is welcome to.

(Nice to see the return of the holiday smilies.)

[Sharkbait]

A post of 18 turns before anybody else gets in there. Have played to end of 300BC turn and have left a decision of whether to get a wonder next turn to the next player.
Egyptians have almost completed Lighthouse, but we can build them next turn in Little Bighorn with some rushing or take Pyramids (now or in a few turns). LH could be handy since there seem to be some big ocean gaps to be crossed but Pyramids would be good too, although maybe the unhappiness would be a problem. Oracle & Great Wall also available in a few more turns

Here's a recap anyway:

-725 (1): Archer onto Trireme in north. Trireme with settlers goes north and finds some land.

-700(2): Bear Paw builds settlers. 3 Forks Phalanx. Starts Lighthouse (to change to another wonder down the track).

-675(3): French start Great Lib, Egyptians start LH.
Settler lands on land to N and we get a NONE nomad which boards trireme. PRB of some settlers.

-650(4): Slim Buttes builds settler. NONE settler on ship goes north and lands on more land. Other settler stays on what seems to be island.

-625(5): WRITING - start Currency. Point of Rocks founded on island. PRB 3 Dips on main island to go to wonder in Little Bighorn. Ship to NE finds Coralis (Carth). Archer lands & meets. Swap Pottery for Mysticism. Give Monarchy for peace (they have Iron W, WarrC and HorseB). Give code of Laws, swap maps which lets me see New York! They say No to alliance. They've got 4 cities size 3 or 4.

-600(6): 3 dips built. Add settler to Little Bighorn to start celebrating - now 5 shields but no extra food. Disband 3 Dips in Little BigHorn. N settler hut Seafaring.

-575(7): Archer near Coralis kills Barb archer & gets vet. Didn't wait to see if I could get leader as I want him to talk to Americans. N trireme exploring.

-550(8): Disorder Wounded Knee - Elvis. Archer meets Americans & finds Philadelphia. Icy. No to war with Carths, Give Monarhcy - peace. Swap Mysticism for Masonry. Neutral. Waiting to check power before going further.

Raging Brook built up north with Gems & Wheat. # Forks changes to Pyramids. RB Dip in Wood Lake.

-525(9): RB warrior in Woundede Knee to allow firing of Elvis. Arher up north back on Trireme - going to try and find the other people with him.Visit Carths, no to war with Americans, demand Seafaring so give it. We're Supreme and Spotless!

-500(10): Warrior in Wounded Knee, fire Elvis. Disband dip in 3 Forks.

-475(11): Running Bear founded next to Raging Brook in north, avoiding whale. Disband Dip in Little Bighorn.

-450(12): Searching. Egyptians start Great Library.

-425(13): Americans come calling and offer 150g for war with Carths. Say no (a mistake?? as we're not on their island?). Trireme back to Slim Buttes.

-400(14): Bear Paw unrest - Elvis. Killdeer & Stony Lake make Dips. Pop now 500k. Disband the dips in Little Bighorn.

-375(15): PRB settler in Bear Paw 4s (can then fire Elvis). Settler near Big Mound doing round west, going to found new city soon.Raging Brook warrior. Find Boston in trireme. Meets Carths, swap Masonry for Iron Working (hoped they would have disvoered something new but no). Carths most advanced, then us then Americans.

-350(16): Americans start Pyramids. Point of Rocks disorder - Elvis. Warrior will be done next turn. Bear Paw settlers. Disorder Slim Buttes - Elvis (settler almost done).

-325(17): Egyptians abandon GL. Deab Buffalo settler. CURRENCY - start Trade. Wounded Knee makes dip - sent to Little Bighorn but not disbanded. Next player can decide what to do! LH 5 turns away now, Trade(MPE) is 11 turns away from discovery. Move people in Little Bighorn so now LH 13 turns away but 2 extra food.

-300(18): Egyptians nearly completed Lighthouse! We can buy it next time in Little Bighorn or go for PYR. Slim Buttes builds settler.

Enjoy - hope I haven't messed things up too much. Prob need some more ships. Good fun this!

[Old n Slow]

Sharkbait -- just a thought for future reference. I ususally hang on to the dips (or camels or trucks) and then cash them in for the wonder at the very end.

Rationale is twofold -- 1) might need that dip or camel elsewhere, and 2) might want to slow down the wonder (for example, we may arrive at the wonder choice too soon -- this wonder, if built slower, could be MPE!)

Good to see fresh blood in action!

[Sharkbait]

A good point - will keep in mind. I did slow the production down in Little Bighorn so that the wonder will now be completed after Trade is discovered, but that was more luck than judgement. So we can get MPE or one of the other ones - next players call.

One thing I didn't mention above - Raging Brook and Running Bear aren't on the coast, which is a bit lame. I hadn't fully explored the island at that stage and was trying to avoid specials, but its not ideal.

[Elephant]

I'll make a little progress on my lunch hour today.