Civ2 still surprises me!

[techumseh]

Was this scn hex-edited by chance?

[Theben]

Yeah, I think Civ2 stil has a few more surprises left in her. But I think it's been known for awhile that if a tech that makes something obsolete is removed, then "it" becomes active again, whether wonder or unit.

[AGRICOLA]

@techumseh

There was no hexediting beyond removing the cheat flag in the attached game after I created the six US ships near Midway.

Rather than slowly developing Japan until it could successfully attack some time in 1944, I made the following changes in rules and events so that Japan could develop more quickly and attack much sooner and in greater strength. I wanted to test how well the scen has been set up to handle the Allied counterattack and if Japan has any hope of resisting it. This was a belated playtest that I had promised to do for Kabayashi.

All ship movements doubled.
Supplies worth 80 rather than 110 shields.
Resources and Japanese units spawned regularly rather than at random intervals by changing random spawning events to denominator=1.
Delayed arrival of Force Z in Singapore and Oil Embargo from turn 44 to historically accurate Dec '41 (turn 60).

I don’t think that the above changes have anything to do with US units spawning in Japanese cities. For example, if one does the following

1. Start downloaded DST.scn (I can’t possibly have gotten my grubby fingers into this clean file ).
2. Give all techs to Japan and US (all are not needed but I’m too lazy to pick out the ones needed by events).
3. Create a Japanese freighter in Okinawa (only for convenience in moving Japanese units in and out of city).
4. Save A.
5. End turn. There should be no US units in Okinawa at the start of the next turn when Japanese units are moved out.
6. Reload save A.
7. Create US cruiser. Have the Japanese sink it.
8. Save B.
9. Check that there is a US freighter in Okinawa by removing Japanese units.
10. Reload save B.
11. End turn. The US freighter has probably been sunk when it attacked a Japanese naval unit but there should now be US Marines and a Dauntless in Okinawa when the Japanese units are removed.
12. The above can equally well be done with Sydney by having the Japanese capture it and then sink a US WWI battleship. However, only subs will be spawned in Sydney.

From this I think that it can be safely concluded that
1. An enemy naval unit can be spawned by events in a city at any time.
2. If an enemy naval unit is present at the end of a turn, enemy ground and air units can be spawned in the city. Subsequently, as long as any enemy units remain in city, additional units can be spawned.
3. This explains the observed events in Okinawa and Sydney.
4. I have no clue as to WTF is going on in Iwo Jima in my game. I can’t duplicate it, but will take a look at the Iwo Jima record in the save as well as some other things.

@Kobayashi
I'm starting to wonder if I may have spilled the beans on a neat trick that you may have figured out some time ago. If so, my abject apologies and a sincere "BRILLIANT WORK".

[Arthedain]

Sorry for the OT but great avatars Curt and Harry. Rome

[Harry Tuttle]

Yeah Rome rocks. One of the best shows on TV.

[curtsibling]

Cheers, Arthedain!

PS
The Rome show seems pretty interesting.

[Arthedain]

Unfortuneatly it doesn't air on Swedish tv yet. But there are other ways..

[kobayashi]

I have to admit I was unaware of any of these weird occurances. My intial reaction is the same as Palaiologos' = "It can't be" but the evidence seems overwhelming.

The Infantry into submarines bug and Great Wall bug seems plausible...but I never encountered the spawning problem and I've played countless test games all the way to the end. Could different versions of the Civ2 play differently?

I will definitely check out the 'naval units can be spawned anywhere - and thereafter other units can spawn' theory. It can be fixed by removing any forward spawning ship locations.

p.s.
I can't use Palaiologos' true solution as the units are meant to be spawned in a chain depending on how close the Allies get to Japan.

and may i take the opportunity to thank agricola once again for taking the time to do such very detailed testing.

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
4. I have no clue as to WTF is going on in Iwo Jima in my game. I can’t duplicate it, but will take a look at the Iwo Jima record in the save as well as some other things.

There is no problem with Iwo Jima. The Japanese had sunk a South Dakota BB during turn n, thereby spawning a freighter in Iwo Jima. The freighter got itself sunk during the subsequet US turn (n+1). However, the presence of the freighter at the start of turn n+1 allowed US Marines to be spawned during that turn.

[Boco]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
Also, if certain US units are killed, events spawn US units in Iwo Jima and Okinawa, even if the cities are in Japanese hands and are already garrisoned by Japanese units. This is something that I have never seen before, probably because designers are aware of possible problems with spawning units in cities which may be in enemy hands.

In this case, opening the city screen, shows only the spawned US units. Any Japanese units in the city are hidden and inaccessible to players. To regain control of of the Japanese units, the only recourse is to disband the US units. Of course, the unlikely result is that US units end up being used to help build Japanese units or improvements.

Not sure it helps, but I've seen something like this in El Aurens. AI land units have occasionally spawned in human-controlled cities. In all cases, the city was occupied by a 0af immobile unit. When the af of the garrison was changed to 1, the problem disappeared.

[our_man]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA


There is no problem with Iwo Jima. The Japanese had sunk a South Dakota BB during turn n, thereby spawning a freighter in Iwo Jima. The freighter got itself sunk during the subsequet US turn (n+1). However, the presence of the freighter at the start of turn n+1 allowed US Marines to be spawned during that turn.

The strange thing is I didn't get any Japanese units spawned in my cities during the game. Damn; that was another bug I would have liked to take advantage of.

[AGRICOLA]

The key to spawning in units in enemy held cities is that the process must be started by spawning a ship in a city. In DST, the only way events can spawn a US ship in a Japanese city is if the Japanese sink a US cruiser, South Dakota class BB or WWI BB.

Actually, there are even better loopholes in DST diplomacy. Japan can arrange to have the British fighting the Europeans and the Japanese being able to build Infantry Brit or Infantry India as well as the Lend Lease wonder.

[our_man]

I'm sure I sank a few of those ships; I'll just do a test on my game to make sure.

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
The key to spawning in units in enemy held cities is that the process must be started by spawning a ship in a city. In DST, the only way events can spawn a US ship in a Japanese city is if the Japanese sink a US cruiser, South Dakota class BB or WWI BB.

assuming you are referring to this event

@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Cruiser
attacker=Japanese
defender=Allies(E)
@THEN
CREATEUNIT
unit=Merchnt Marine
owner=Allies(E)
veteran=no
homecity=none
locations
50,50 -> okinawa
51,67 -> palau
42,78 -> hollandia
42,116 - >hobart
44,106 -> sydney
endlocations
@ENDIF

I just sank four US cruisers in a test and 4 merchant marine all appeared in Hobart, the highest city in the list which the U.S. controls.

I'm pretty sure this is the way it has always happened because its the core of my amphibious landing engine - i.e. how to get the marines to board transports and I tested it dozens of times. Seems our_man has the same result as me.

So what does this mean... The bug only appears on some PCs and not others?

Regarding the boco suggestion about garrisoning by 0 attack factor units... I disbanded everything in okinawa and still the freighters appeared in hobart.

[kobayashi]

one other question.

LendLease does upgrade infantry to submarines as you pointed out.

Doesn't the upgraded unit have to be of the same domain as the obsolete unit for leonardo to work? Guess I really made a boo boo on that one.