Moving Civs to Other Color Groups ...

[Boco]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Insofar as I can tell, each AI nation typically has no more than six to 10 shock troop units at any one time ... but, boy, does it ever splurge on cruise missiles and bombers/stealth bombers (which haven't been modified by me). At least with the missiles, it's *using* them instead of stockpiling them, which is what it did before I cheapened them by 10 shields or so. Before the change, I'd encounter AI cities with up to 10 missiles in them ... nowadays, usually not more than two or three, the rest having been expended against my invading/defending armies!

This is definitely not low-level stuff. A major, yet poorly understood, area in scenario design is understanding AI behavior. We don't know the specific 'decision points' that influence whether the AI will build, expend, or hoard missiles. IIRC in vanilla Civ2, its common knowledge that the AI will hoard CM's unless CV's and BB's are remotely in range. By cheapening CM's, you're confirming a trend we've seen, too: the AI's willingness to use units depends on the costs of both defender and attacker (as well as the chance of success). If you show specific examples (screen dumps?) of how the cost and/or combat stats influence AI behavior, then you'll be raising the bar a bit — e.g. this is what the AI does with 'conventional' CM's if you load a specific SAV file vs. what the AI does with tweaked CM's.

[Gatekeeper]

Hey, glad to see I helped contribute a wee bit to SL discussions WRT cruise missile usage, shock troops and whatnot.

I can't provide screen shots comparing CCC and MCC, though, since once I was sure my alterations wouldn't screw up the game, I went into the original RULES.TXT file and changed it. I suppose I could reinstall Civ II, but ...

BTW, and this is likely common knowledge here, but it seems that no matter what is done with the carrier unit, the AI *cannot* use it effectively. It's almost like it's hard-coded into the program to ignore that entire line. What's odd about that is it uses every other naval unit effectively, including my customized "stealth transports," i.e., the Stingrays.

Gatekeeper

[Panda]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
BTW, and this is likely common knowledge here, but it seems that no matter what is done with the carrier unit, the AI *cannot* use it effectively. It's almost like it's hard-coded into the program to ignore that entire line. What's odd about that is it uses every other naval unit effectively, including my customized "stealth transports," i.e., the Stingrays.

Actually that's kind of a common assumption, but in fact this is again a result of AI cost perceptions. Lowering the build cost of the carrier, in fact halving the cost, will see the AI actually recover air units (especially damaged) and re-launch costal strikes.

Yes, this does change the nature of the unit itself, which *we* see as being the equivalent of a massive Nimitz class carrier that should be able to take care of itself. In Civ2 Carriers do not use on-board fighters as interceptors, so we not only need to modify the unit stats so the AI will use it, we also need to modify our perception of what the unit should be to fit the stats.

Screenshot is from a recent game using modified rules.txt. Greeks are AI controlled, my Russian cities above and right.

[Boco]

Can you post the Rules modifications that led to this? [Edit] Or is it a cost only change? [/Edit]

[Panda]

Carrier, nil, 2, 7.,0, 0a,9d, 4h,2f, 8,0, 2, X1, 010000010000000

Cost, and removed the attack value that should never have been in there. Ignore the tech pre-req.

[Gatekeeper]

Panda:

Thanks for the heads-up on the carrier modifications. I've tried forever to get the AI to use 'em ... I've already modified my RULES.TXT to reflect what you did, so hopefully your trick will do the job.

I'd love to see the AI try to pound my cities with carrier-based bombers, even if they're just half-repaired ones.

Gatekeeper

[Panda]

I should just add that the version I use is my dearly loved FW and I can't guarantee that the AI for other versions (inc Mac) will perform the same way, though for FW it is consistent. Happy civing.

[Gatekeeper]

Sheesh. There's always gotta be an "out"!

Gatekeeper

[Elok]

Yeah, good escape. I wonder, could this inspire the AI to use land-based "carriers" as well? I know land units can't actually carry, but if the AI would just use them to refuel air units it'd be cool.

[Boco]

I'll bet that the ToT AI isn't significantly different in combat tactics and strategy between versions, except in diplomacy. [Boco ducks out as others point out his obvious lack of research. ]

Panda, that's a good alternative Rules.txt that you posted over in CivFan. Didn't want to hijack Broken_Erika's thread, so instead I'm hijacking Gatekeeper's (well-l-l-l we are talking in more general terms about Rules.txt ). Interesting premise to delay the onset of the modern age.

Unless constrained by self-imposed limits many players wipe out the AI before the modern era in vanilla Civ2. Do you guys play with any house rules? Last game I played, I forced myself to launch to AC before conquering the world (and no, I neither landed early nor captured all cities within the span of a space flight )

[Panda]

I'm sure Gatekeeper won't mind a little thread-reorientation in the name of wider knowlegde sharing, especially when I know he does favour self-imposed restrictions. To that end I'm re-posting the modified rules.txt variant I use in my games that was posted over at CivFan. Gamekeeper, you should find this interesting:

I've attached the modified rules.txt I'm currently using for my games. You'll see that the extra techs are mainly to delay the industrial age, especially RR, and that many of the modern units are pushed to the far end of the tech tree. Units were also re-organised for efficient use of sound associations (just something I've always seen as good practice).

Thanks for the praise, Boco.

To be honest I never play vanilla games, or specifically early-landing or early-conquest games that are so popular with the Strategists, though I am of course extremely grateful for their tips and empirical research. I do use the Super Science City and Super Production City strategy, of course, because I think that once you've incorporated it you can't really go back. Well, you could, I'm just not that self-disciplined. So most of the few regular games I play are simply play-testing rules.txt variants.

One idea does occur of reducing the cost of Caravan units to see if the AI produces more of them.

[Gatekeeper]

Heh. Yes, I'm very much into self-restraint when it comes to playing a Civ game.

Now, onto business: So far, the AI isn't taking the bait WRT carriers. I've lowered the cost to 60 shields, given it two-square visibility, AEGIS-like defenses, even gave it a slight attack value (only after the AI didn't use it with a zero attack value), yet nothing seems to work.

Seems like I remember reading somewhere years ago that the programmers deliberately made it so the AI wouldn't use carriers. Obviously, that's not true for all versions of Civ II, but it must be for some, like Civ II Mac.

Oh, well. I'll keep trying on and off. Who knows? Maybe once it costs only 10 shields and has a defense factor of 99 the AI will use it.

Gatekeeper

[Boco]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Heh. Yes, I'm very much into self-restraint when it comes to playing a Civ game.

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Seems like I remember reading somewhere years ago that the programmers deliberately made it so the AI wouldn't use carriers.

Are you saying its the slot or any unit with the CV flag?

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Oh, well. I'll keep trying on and off. Who knows? Maybe once it costs only 10 shields and has a defense factor of 99 the AI will use it.

I know in my line of work, we often start at an extremely contrived set of parameters to prove a concept, then tweak the parameters to get to practical settings. Sounds like that wouldn't hurt here. Still, Panda has gotten the AI to make them. Hafta admit that I'm sceptical that the differences between your examples are due to versions — it's gotta be another inconsistent variable in your respective set ups.

[Panda]

I'll repeat that this is consistent for FW and the carrier unit is not tied to slot no. 43.

edit: I'm trying to find the original tip for lowering the costs on my HDD, but I can only find one discussion about this that indicates the carrier won't be used in slot no.43. Is this where yours is? If so, try swapping it for another.


The above screenshot was taken using rules.txt variant where the carrier was in slot no.55. I've also gotten this to work in two scenarios, and I'll post the rules.txt entries here to demonstrate:

From 1941:
Aircraft Carrier,FP,2, 8.,0, 0a,8d, 10h,1f, 8,0, 2, Exp, 000000010000001

From Atomic Age:
Aircraft Carrier, Cmp, 2, 7.,0, 0a,6d, 4h,3f, 7,0, 2, Csc, 000000010000000

Gatekeeper, I really think you'd be better served trying to replicate the results I had using the same stats, rather than trying to make the unit more attractive, even if this means playing a few more games. I should have mentioned that there is a contextual factor as well in that there must be an ocean between the two of you for the AI to consider launching costal strikes. I have also observed the AI transporting multiple fighter units to overseas cities on Carriers and then flying them off. I won't believe I'm the only one to have seen this.

[Gatekeeper]

Hmm. How does the numbering system work on these slots? Is No. 1 the very first unit in the list? Anyway, it does seem like I remember reading about how the slot itself might have been why the AI didn't use carriers.

Can one merely cut and paste entire lines of code? I've never done that, partially because I know the program is sensitive to placement of coding.

As for my own playtesting efforts, well, I always play on an Earth map, and make sure seafaring nations are among the mix of nations. Lately, I've simply put my settler to sleep and "fast-forwarded" the game to see if the AI ever uses carriers once it has the tech. So far, no luck. A few times I've given the AI all technologies ... still no luck ... not even with major seafaring nations. Battleships, cruisers, destroyers, Stingrays, subs ... you name it, the AI uses it ... except for the carrier.

Gatekeeper