WW2 Unit Graphics

[Arthedain]

Great units. I've been thinking before of a scenario where the Byzantine Empire survived. It's a great idea

[torbk]

In such a scenario, it would be natural to have Germany, Italy and Russia besides Byzantium. Add England and USA that grants room for one more. Say this is set in 1940-41, after the fall of France?

Also, which would be the natural allies of Byzantine? Would it support the formation of a Third Reich and Mussolini's dream of a new Roman Empire, or would it be opposed to this? Especially since Mussolini might view Byzantine as a possible conquest? Perhaps it would be best to let the player decide which side he sides with, or if he doesn't side with either and tries to fight the war on his own?

As a part of the Axis the Byzantine fights against Russia. One could argue that one Orthodox nation would be a natural ally of another Orthodox nation, but on the other hand, Communism in Russia suppressed the church, and allying with Germany could be seen as an attempt to free the Orthodox church from Stalinism.

I doubt any Christian Byzantine Emperor/Empress would support Hitler, though I could be wrong. Would Byzantine make another Axis or another Ally?

[Arthedain]

Really interesting discussion.

My two cents:
* Byzantines have always had interests on the Italian peninsula, and would probably stop a unification of Italy.
* Like you said, the communists supressed the Church, and the Byzantines would probably want to free the other orthodox christians.
* That's why I think the Byzantine empire could be part of the axis powers, instead of Italy. Maybe the Empire even developed more into a fascist state.
* Maybe Germany, Soviet Union AND the Byzantine Empire carved up Eastern Europe/Balcans. I don't think there'd be so many smaller states in the Balcan region if the Empire was still around.

However you got some good points that it probably wouldn't support Hitler. And all this is pure imagination from my side

[curtsibling]

Really interesting idea...
How would the existence of a strong Christian/Western flavoured nation influence
historical events?...Would they become a morbid Eastern despotism? Would they
fare badly in WW1 and become another fascist powerhouse? Or would they have
grown powerful in the 1800s and forged a great imperial realm once more?

They might have swallowed up the Balkans and have Romania's vast oil, perhaps
even earlier adventures against the Tzars might have gave them the Caucasus?

So many possibilities...So many paths!

[Arthedain]

So many possibilities...So many paths!

[McMonkey]

Fascinating stuff. I like the idea of a Byzantine victory at Manzikert not leading to a period of decline. Very speculative but very interesting. My own imagination pictures the Alternative-Byzantines in the mid 20th century as a similar state to the Austro-Hungarian Empire of the early part of the century. It would be a relic of a bygone age but it would have the potential to regain its greatness. A good example of a strong leader reinvigorating a dying power would be Ataturk. Perhaps the Byzantines could be led by a man of similar character who could be a modern day Belisarius.

If you are going to go down the path of alternative history I would also look at some other turning points in history for the other major nations. This might allow some poetic licence in balancing up the powers to make a better game. Even if it didn't result in a scenario it would generate some interesting points to discuss!

[torbk]

With a Byzantine control of Greece and central Balkan, there would have been no Austria-Hungary. Without such a foe in the Great War, Mussolini might never have risen to power. We are looking at a Democratic Italy which might possibly be neutral or even an Allied nation. Who knows, perhaps even the socialists took control and Italy has a pro-Russian government?

More questions surface, such as Italy, if Democratic, would it have been able to support France? And could Italian, English and French forces together have blunted the German attack on western Europe?

Would Germany have any allies at all?

Could the Byzantine Empire actually be a great power?

[Feta]

I'm glad that I've managed to spark such a debate

I was kicking around the idea of using these guys for a "Red Front" type scenario wherein the Byzantine Empire must survive and repulse a simultaneous deluge of Turks and Crusaders. I'm not sure that'll ever see the light of day, though.

Anyhow, I've added a few more units to the collection. You might find some of them amusing

[Feta]

And here's the usable bitmap:

[McMonkey]

Very cool mods! I may well make use of some of these, though not in a modern Byzantine scenario.

I just added the PNG so it can be seen in the post. All you need to do is click on the uploaded file to see it in its own page, copy the URL, then in your post click on the Insert Image button (the one that looks like a yellow box with a grey mountain in it) and paste the URL. Your PNG preview should display in your post

[GhostOfDisco]

I've got some ideas for a "modern-day" Byzantine military, but they'll have to wait until I get back from vacation...

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, one has to wonder if there would be a World War II had the Byzantine Empire survived, as Europe would not have the Ottoman threat in its southeastern corner, nor would the Grand Duke of Moscow be able to claim to be "Tsar of All the Russias." (Well, at the very least, it couldn't claim to be the "Fourth Rome") The Russian expansion into the ginormous country we know today could still have happened, but, nevertheless, here's a regular 1940 Byzantine (or Roman, or East Roman, depending on whom you ask) infantryman:

His helmet is a combination of the Fallschirmjäger helmet with "Roman-style" (more "Byzantine-" than Pax Romana, but still) cheek and neck guards. It seems to me that, being the last legitimate claim to the Roman imperial throne, the Byzantines of the 20th century would want to establish some kind of link to the legions of old...

[GhostOfDisco]

Continuing the whole "alternate WW2" bandwagon, here's some vehicles from a WW2 where the North and South US weren't reunited in the Civil War.

I'm not sure if I want to read Turtledove's Timeline-191 take on a North-South WW2, given some of the things I heard about it (if the Union is the one friendly with Germany, than why does the South develop the Stuka exactly like the RL Germans? And I've also heard that in one of the later books, a whole chapter was duplicated - and the book went to press with such an error!) Nonetheless, I do like the idea of the general foreign alignments - a German-focused North and a British/French-aligned South. So here's some early Panzers in US garb (and a 109 thrown in for good measure), but some British and French tanks (plus a Hurricane, the most widely-produced British fighter pre/early WW2) for the Confederates - I can see the Southerners camouflaging their tanks and planes in the "traditional" colors of grey and butternut (which actually aren't that bad for blending in with nature...)

[torbk]

Astonishingly nice units! And indeed, a very nice camouflage color.

Interestingly, the Germans were the first to use camouflage widely, while the British and French were quite slow to adapt camouflage patterns. Even so, it makes sense for the South (whom were a bit more irregular in warfare) to use such, while the industrial North to simply use single color regulars.

[Broken_Erika]

Some ww2-ish units i had kicking around